I'm absolutely neutral on this Palestinian / Israeli insanity - they're all splinters of the same original tribe of lunatics - and the whole region is a disaster area and a threat to our entire species. But nothing nauseates me more than the romanticisation of the Palestinian cause.

I have no objection to you tearing strips of flesh from the Israelis for their horrifying overkill. None whatsoever. As long as you don't make out that the Palestinians are 100% pure and good, and that Israel is the only criminal, human rights abusing state in the region. Seriously, what do they expect if they sit there and spray lethal bottle rockets over the border continuously ?

First you can begin with how fellow Muslim countries treat Palestinian refugees -

http://www.crisisgroup.org/home/index.cfm?l=1&id=5928

http://www.mideastweb.org/log/archives/00000693.htm

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/ICG/85210bac3db73a25a8c074...

For all the rhetoric about Muslim brotherhood and charity, the Palestinians are an unwanted people. They are treated like vermin when they seek refuge in Muslim countries - for want of a better analogy, and if you'll excuse it, they are the Middle East's niggers. The ones that aren't locked up in squalid despairing conditions in refugee camps are used essentially as slave labour, eking out a miserable existance merely to subsist, second class citizens stripped of all rights. The Middle East couldn't give a rat's ass about them despite their illusions to the contrary.

Embed this into your compassion: Muslim outrage at the Palestinian issue has nothing to do with concern for the welfare of the Palestinian people, and has everything to do with exploiting the situation to incite maximum hatred of Israel. I don't exactly see any activists lining up and pointing the finger at the Muslim world for their failure to support their "brothers".

Second, remember that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion is not considered to be a piece of particularly nasty and vile propganda in the region - it is considered to be an accurate historical document exposing the real agenda of the Jewish conspiracy, the only solution to which is the destruction of the Jewish state -

http://www.radioislam.net/islam/english/toread/pr-zion.htm

And last but not least - everyone here is ever so fond of regurgitating the Nazi / Vatican connection. Far fewer want to identify the Nazi / Palestinian connection. Don't forget about that piece of history - specifically Grand Mufti, Haj Muhammed Amin al-Husseini [1], [2]

While in Baghdad, Syria al-Husseini aided the pro-Nazi revolt of 1941. He then spent the rest of World War II as Hitler's special guest in Berlin, advocating the extermination of Jews in radio broadcasts back to the Middle East and recruiting Balkan Muslims for infamous SS "mountain divisions" that tried to wipe out Jewish communities throughout the region.

And don't forget the generous offer to Hitler for Palestine to host extermination camps on its own soil -

The Nazis provided Al Husseini with luxurious accommodations in Berlin and a monthly stipend in excess of $10,000. In return, he regularly appeared on German radio touting the Jews as the "most fierce enemies of Muslims," and implored an adoption of the Nazi "final solution" by Arabs. After the Nazi defeat at El Alamein in 1942, Al Husseini broadcast radio messages on Radio Berlin calling for continued Arabic resistance to Allied forces. In time, he came to be known as the "Fuhrer's Mufti" and the "Arab Fuhrer."

So I'd suggest walking a mile in an Israeli's shoes before allowing the "feel-good" politics of Palestinian activism to wash you away. I can't ever recall Israel ever calling for a "final solution". Neither side is right, both sides make me sick to my stomach and ashamed to be human.

Tags: feel good politics, insanity, israel, palestine, playing ostrich, propaganda

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Replies to This Discussion

The heart of the problem is the fabrication of a sovereign nation based upon religious superstition. If Zionism hadn't had so many proponents in modern Christendom, the State of Israel would not exist.

"Neither side is right, both sides make me sick to my stomach and ashamed to be human."

All the players in the saga are our fellow human beings. Unfortunately, the most radical keep the fight going. The voice of the many Israelis and Palestinians that want peace and fairness is drowned out by the zealots in both camps.
No doubt the history is ugly on the Palestinian side too. Everything you mentioned, I generally understood. Certainly Israel has obligations to protect people that live under its rules; and that includes the Palestinians, too. There are too many things that add up about Israels side as well. Israel is in what used to be universally known as Palestine. There have been many Jews trickling in to Palestain before WWII, and Israel was allowed to be created but Britian which used to own that territory, and the US, which was flexing its new superpowers, were very much guilty for many of the lives lost in The Holocaust.

The US public has a history of being anti-semitic. John Garner, who was Vice president under Roosevelt's first eight years, used Antisemitism to run against Roosevelt, so Roosevelt decided to keep his enemy's closer than his friends, an approach that Abraham Lincoln had. There were also cabinet secretaries that were anti semetic, and with the Nazi's just rising up to power, the cabinet didn't want Jews to enter in the US. Britan had similar issues, and didn't allow Jews in either. Europe was just getting more dangerous and the only place that was taking Jews was Argentina.

The Nazis were mostly holding off on the slaughter hoping that harassing Jews would be enough to get rid of them. Hitler definitely wanted to kill Jews, but to do that can put him in jeopardy. The problem was that nobody would take them.

I am taking for ever to write this, and it's one here.

Two be continued…
Nate: Unfortunately, the most radical keep the fight going. The voice of the many Israelis and Palestinians that want peace and fairness is drowned out by the zealots in both camps.

Hamas was elected by a majority. The majority still support Hamas even after this latest butchery - and support continued bottle-rocket strikes.

What is it that you mean by "many ... want peace" ? Is it a lot, were you to count them ? Or a clear majority ? I'll agree with the former, but the latter is patently false. Hamas will continue their mosquito vs. an elephant tactics regardless of the scale of the consequences in civilian death and misery, with a clear mandate from their people. Those that want peace try to flee, and get treated like dogs by their neighbours.

Tell me - who would you prefer to have next door as a country ? Israel or Syria ? Israel have been ceding territory back, they are evicting militant nutjob Jewish settlers. They have no long term goals to expand their territory. They may be small gestures, but they are gestures. What do they get in return ? Suicide bombers, rockets and endless genocidal rhetoric, which no one in the Muslim world makes any effort to object to.

Again, put yourself in Israeli shoes. What exactly would you do ?
You've made some good points, felch. I don't think anyone in this group is promoting the extermination of Israel. I don't think that was the motive for starting it.
I don't think anyone in this group is promoting the extermination of Israel. I don't think that was the motive for starting it.

I never said you did. I just don't like to see Palestinians being sugar coated and presented as innocent victims. Most of their problems are self-inflicted. Many are incited for no sane reason. No I am not saying Israel is innocent - there all of the same insane spawn. Hamas are Islamists - they care nothing for life on this earth. They celebrate death and martyrdom for the sake of an illusory paradise. They don't care about civilian death and destruction - the more the better. With popular support from its people. It incites muslim hatred and much hand wringing and pity in the soft, pink first world by people who have issues much closer to home that they could realistically help if they weren't diverted.

It boggles me that we, that are 1000's of miles away, have people encouraging us to have sympathy and somehow magically make it all stop. Often with dirty, kicking below the belt guilt tactics. If any one is in a position to help solve the Palestinian humanitarian crisis, it is the Islamic world. They do nothing - other than exploit Palestinians to clean their toilets for a handful of bread and spinach.

Again, to be the devil's advocate - the destruction of Israel has not occurred as yet only due to lack of means, not lack of intent. Tell me again, what would you do if you were an Israeli.
"Tell me again, what would you do if you were an Israeli."

Hard to say. But I'd like to think that perhaps I would see the common humanity shared by both Jew and Arab and be outraged by the atrocities committed by both sides, recognizing that the silence of the majority enables the fanatical minority.
Israel has had a quite a bit of sugar coating itself. Israel has been pretty extreme in its approach to handling Palestine. It is important to look at the history of Israel. Israel as I mentioned above did not exist until the 40s. It's using a land grab aproach to take Palestinian land. Also Israeli Jews also get screwed in the process, because many of them were given certain hopes that didn't really pan out.

Hamas shouldn't get sugar coated that is for sure, but understand that they get there support because the Palestinian people have been getting a raw deal, and would hope to do anything to get rid of Israel because its treatment of Palestinians and other non Jews.

Israel by the way, has not ceded much territory, and has continued to take territory. even after it claimed to cede territory.

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