Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Lyllogism on July 26, 2010 at 1:15pm

Missing the point.
If you want to insure those who get a degree know the best state of current information on a subject then test them on it and give them a failing grade if they do not acknowledge it. This is not what happened. She is being forced out because she did not tow the line in open discussion and expressed the same outside the classroom.

Can you see the difference or is the us versus them rally call so ingrained in your thought process that you did not even read the complaint which you are posting opinions on. This is not a football game where your position on a matter comes with the seat you occupy in the stands; or is it?

Permalink Reply by Prog Rock Girl on July 26, 2010 at 3:29pm

Lance: In her defense I don't like "sensitivity training" and I don't think it ever actually makes people more sensitive. Holding a gun to someone's head saying "be more tolerant or you're fired" (or whatever) will only make them pretend to be more tolerant while resenting said group all the more. I don't expect that everyone will accept homosexuality. I'm not so insecure that I need everyone's approval. There are things that I dislike that the PC world thinks I should like and I don't want to be forced to like them either. Also, usually when someone is outnumbered or backed into a corner they don't stand a chance.

However, after reading the complaint, this still looks like a "they're taking away my right to bully other people" thing. She had said that she is unable to respect other people's right to their own moral compass b/c her beliefs are The Truth (therefore her rights are being taken away if she can't tell people The Truth) and that she wouldn't be able to keep her opinions to herself if she had a gay client. It is client abuse to try and convert a gay patient, and it is also unethical to use one's position as a counselor to advertise a religion or ideology. It is true that they are rejecting her before she has actually done anything to harm a client.

She wants special exception to the rules, and not just the school's rules (like saying "I'll do the first part of the remediation, but the second one I don't believe in so I shouldn't have to do it") but also the larger psychological community. There are lots of other people who have their own views that they see as The Truth and why shouldn't they get an exception too? Maybe a Muslim counselor "sincerely believes" as part of their "religious conviction" that rape victims are wrong to entice men. (Yeah, I know not all Muslims believe that, but some do. The same way not all Christians rant against homosexuality, but some do.) Maybe there are other people who are deeply opposed to interracial relationships or any other number of things their clients might do, but there's a certain amount of objectivity someone needs when they are counseling, because it's not all about you, it's about the client. I don't see this as any different from excluding creationists from scientific teaching (but it's their religious conviction, and it's a violation of their rights to not let them speak freely in front of the class about their beliefs!) or holocaust deniers from being history teachers. Being religious and in a certain career field doesn't give people the right to ignore the basic foundations of that field of study.

Permalink Reply by Joseph P on July 26, 2010 at 3:41pm

If you want to insure those who get a degree know the best state of current information on a subject then test them on it and give them a failing grade if they do not acknowledge it. This is not what happened. She is being forced out because she did not tow the line in open discussion and expressed the same outside the classroom.

... which is one of the many layers of quality control to prevent them from cutting people lose into the world who will not act in the best interests of their patients. This is what residencies are for, in the medical field. The same should be applied to fiddling around with people's minds, as is applied to messing around with their other internal organs.

Permalink Reply by Joseph P on July 26, 2010 at 3:50pm

Why wasn't she going to Liberty U anyway?

They're one of the many unaccredited fundie universities, right? She apparently wanted the value that goes along with a degree from a secular university.

It's similar to when creationists try to get Ph.D.'s in geology. They go through the courses feeding the professors exactly what they want, so that they can get the piece of paper. Then, they turn around and deny everything they used to get their degree. It's a way to con the system and get an 'expert' who doesn't deserve the label.

Of course there are very, very few people who do this, because it's hard to fake your way through a freaking Ph.D.

This girl could have had something similar planned, trying to push fundie counseling into the mainstream.

Permalink Reply by Joseph P on July 26, 2010 at 3:52pm

Look at Richard Dawkins fatherly smile instead and be a good atheist now. :)

Sorry man, I don't swing that way. :-P

Permalink Reply by Susan Stanko on July 26, 2010 at 4:22pm

I find Richard Dawkins to be sexy.

Permalink Reply by Prog Rock Girl on July 26, 2010 at 8:39pm

I still think Carl Sagan, back in the day, was the sexiest scientist.

Permalink Reply by Susan Stanko on July 26, 2010 at 3:27pm

I think I am starting to understand you Fred. If someone makes a comment you don't like then you attack him for it. But, if you are attacked then it is happening unfairly. Not that you might actually be wrong.

Permalink Reply by Susan Stanko on July 26, 2010 at 4:15pm

I give up. You know when someone else is being attacked but, you don't know when you are attacking someone else.

Permalink Reply by Lyllogism on July 30, 2010 at 12:59pm

public school - enforcing view of majority through peer pressure and/or coercion
school prayer and freedom of religion - not this time
but rather freedom of speech

If the school is incapable of transferring the knowledge, that is the cause of dissension, through academic rigor it should not then resort to methods which can be seen as breaching the rights of its students.

Thank you for the comments Prog Rock Girl. I would argue the above regardless of the belief in question. I know discrimination against gays is still very prevalent. Like I told a young openly gay friend at work - if someone has a problem with you because of your sexuality - that is their problem. You can't change everybody, enjoy your life regardless of their ignorance. As you probably know the laws against discrimination do not stop mean spirited comments from acquaintances from being hurtful as well as outside of the law's purview.

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