"Hmmm, an outreach to atheists from the pope? I wonder ... is this an attempt at engagement and maybe a dialogue ... or is it an act of desperation from an organization which may finally be recognizing that it is failing at both engagement and…"
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what I believe
http://www.nospank.net/fyog19.htm#afterword
because people often cannot face the repressed pain in their own experience, they turn to drugs, alcohol, or belief in things like Sin and Salvation and Repentance, Recovery, Redemption.
What they reject are Revolution and Redress, because that would mean facing the pain.
Notice how some evangelicals use the term "rebellious". To them this is a cardinal sin, the cardinal sin, original sin. Well, the model they are using here is that the wills of children must be broken. That is, they are seeing God as an abusive parent.
Now of course no one could rebel against an all powerful and all knowing God. They wouldn't get very far.
So what they are really saying is that one must submit to the abusive parent, to the archetype of the abusive parent. Failure to do so makes one something akin to a juvenile delinquent. This is what they think.
To face the pain of how they were broken would be extremely hard for them.
So instead, they make God / Abusive Parents right, by calling for Repentance, Recovery, and Redemption.
Deleuze and Guattari speak of displacement. That is, you make a prohibition on something. Then you convince people that the reason it is prohibited is because they want to do it.
D and G are writing about Freud and Oedipus. But the larger meaning of their text is that this is the same as Original Sin.
So there is a prohibition on rejection God, revolting against God, etc. Then people are convinced that that is what they had wanted to do, and so this is why there is a prohibition.
Facing the pain inflicted by abusive parents, physical pain, emotional pain, psychological pain, and all that comes from being degraded and humiliated, is intensely difficult. So instead of facing it, people gather together like scared little sheep and worship the abusive Sky Daddy and try to earn his approval.
But in reality, no one would want to reject God. Why would they? There is no reason to reject God. The world is a scary place. Just being alive is scary. The tendency is to want all the God and/or Gods one can get. The tendency is to built up concretized belief systems, to build idols, and then to dance around and cry out to them.
The tendency is to form social groupings to promote this concretized belief system, as it lets one deny the pains caused by the abusive parents. Its easier to make the abusers right, and to believe in one's unworthiness, than it is to face the pain.
Naturally this sort of moral defect theology is very popular with people who have major histories with substance addiction. The same abuses which lead people to substance addiction as a denial system, also lead them to Sin and Salvation as a denial system.
because people often cannot face the repressed pain in their own experience, they turn to drugs, alcohol, or belief in things like Sin and Salvation and Repentance, Recovery, Redemption.
What they reject are Revolution and Redress, because that would mean facing the pain.
Notice how some evangelicals use the term "rebellious". To them this is a cardinal sin, the cardinal sin, original sin. Well, the model they are using here is that the wills of children must be broken. That is, they are seeing God as an abusive parent.
Now of course no one could rebel against an all powerful and all knowing God. They wouldn't get very far.
So what they are really saying is that one must submit to the abusive parent, to the archetype of the abusive parent. Failure to do so makes one something akin to a juvenile delinquent. This is what they think.
To face the pain of how they were broken would be extremely hard for them.
So instead, they make God / Abusive Parents right, by calling for Repentance, Recovery, and Redemption.
Deleuze and Guattari speak of displacement. That is, you make a prohibition on something. Then you convince people that the reason it is prohibited is because they want to do it.
D and G are writing about Freud and Oedipus. But the larger meaning of their text is that this is the same as Original Sin.
So there is a prohibition on rejection God, revolting against God, etc. Then people are convinced that that is what they had wanted to do, and so this is why there is a prohibition.
Facing the pain inflicted by abusive parents, physical pain, emotional pain, psychological pain, and all that comes from being degraded and humiliated, is intensely difficult. So instead of facing it, people gather together like scared little sheep and worship the abusive Sky Daddy and try to earn his approval.
But in reality, no one would want to reject God. Why would they? There is no reason to reject God. The world is a scary place. Just being alive is scary. The tendency is to want all the God and/or Gods one can get. The tendency is to built up concretized belief systems, to build idols, and then to dance around and cry out to them.
The tendency is to form social groupings to promote this concretized belief system, as it lets one deny the pains caused by the abusive parents. Its easier to make the abusers right, and to believe in one's unworthiness, than it is to face the pain.
Naturally this sort of moral defect theology is very popular with people who have major histories with substance addiction. The same abuses which lead people to substance addiction as a denial system, also lead them to Sin and Salvation as a denial system.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Joan Denoo on -
I awaken in the morning, grateful to be alive and able to participate and have all my senses that bring me both pleasure and pain, but at least I am capable of feeling. With diabetes this takes on new importance as I experience very little feeling in my feet. It alerts me to the real treasures of sensations.
I go through the day doing different tasks, some routine and some fresh and new. There is always my home and garden to keep my mind and body busy, but the real joy comes in seeing things look or sound or taste better than they were. Thirty-eight years ago I bought a condemned house and turned it and the grounds into a place of fun, experimentation, discovery, interest, serenity, security, and safety.
Having family and friends I love and who love me brings me great pleasure and stimulation. None of them have interests in maintaining the status quo, but for exploring for ways to make life kinder and gentler on people, animals, plants, water, soils, and air. We are mostly nature lovers so see wonder in each turn of the seasons of the year and celebrate them together.
One of my favorite activities is thinking. Just thinking. No motion, no action, just thinking. About everything and anything. My family and friends tend to be thinkers, too. What fun, thinking together.
My very favorite of all is to go out into the garden, any time of the year, and look into the sky with its myriad of suggested forms, holes in the dark, some of them have names and some form constellations. As I observe the wonders of the universe, held in place by natural forces with no expectation that I have anything to be responsible for, but to just see them, recognize them as friends and co-travelers in the universe. No star, no constellation, no planet, no sun or moon has more value than the organism named Joan. I am. I participate in it all and I had absolutely nothing to do with any of this creation. There are four known forces in the universe:
electromagnetism, strong interaction, weak interaction and gravitation with more to be discovered.
There are four different types of nucleotides found in DNA, differing only in the nitrogenous base. The four nucleotides are given one letter abbreviations as shorthand for the four bases. Living matter is made up of these nucleotides. Just four!?: A is for adenine, G is for guanine, C is for cytosine, and T is for thymine.
There exist 26 letters in our alphabet, just 26!? and from these come billions and billions of words, sentences and books.
We could go on with this exercise but I think you get my idea. This full-of-wonder universe exists and I/we participate with it for a very short period of time. Time wasters chew up huge chunks of it, and if one chooses, one can fill time with being, doing, belonging, thinking, and wondering.
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Permalink Reply by Becoming Other on -
Joan,
I'm real busy right now and wasn't planning on logging into Atheist Nexus for some time. But I got an email notification that you replied to this thread and I was concerned so I looked to see what you had said.
You have your right to your views. I'm not interested in trying to compromise that. I just point out to you that the sorts of things you are talking about are 180 deg diametrically opposed to what I posted to start this thread.
I am not interested in any awe in the universe or live and let live doctrines. These things tend to be approbations, ways of avoiding dealing with trouble and pain, denial systems.
No I am not saying that they have no place, just that they are completely opposed to what I posted to start the thread.
I am concerned with what draws people to concretized belief systems, to religious fundamentalism. Mostly it seems to be the abusive family. Then things like Psychotherapy and the Recovery Movement discourage redress and further denigrate the victims.
So what I believe is that we have to start fighting back against denial systems, and against the doctrine of Live and Let Live. We have to stand up to religious fundamentalism, and we have to stop people from being able to exploit children and then blame it on the children. We have to fight back against all the political doctrines which arise from the family system, like Capitalism. Currently I am preparing for a site to talk more about this that there might be some mobilization and some action. Nothing will change until some foes are vanquished. I am not a Pacifist. I am not a Libertarian. I am not a member of the Unitarian Universalists. I want action, battles to be fought. I am fighting battles now on the ground.
I have simple policy towards Psychotherapy and the Recovery Movement, zero tolerance. I don't engage in Live and Let Live.
So yes you have a right to your thoughts and to post what you want. But again I point out to you that your post has nothing to do with the one I made to start this thread.
Becoming Other
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Permalink Reply by Joan Denoo on
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Becoming Other. Thanks for taking time to read and respond. I look forward to reading your comments and will not intrude, unless I have something I want to write. ... I shall write on a more appropriate site. I like your,
" Revolution and Redress, because that would mean facing the pain."
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