Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by JayBarti on August 10, 2009 at 10:17pm

Small Gods is one of my favorites, Feet of Clay I would consider a close second. I re-read them all the time.

Ook!

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Permalink Reply by Mel on August 10, 2009 at 10:23pm

Apparently he gets letters from Christians that "Small Gods" is the most wonderfully religious and spiritual book they've ever read, AND letters from atheists that "Small Gods" explains all of their issues with religion. Both sides of the fence loving the same book for completely opposite reasons.

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Permalink Reply by JayBarti on August 10, 2009 at 10:29pm

lol nice.

I like them because everyone in the books (all the characters) are so very human, even the gods. Pratchett has a rare ability to write real characters and the smart ones, who even though they are trapped in a fantasy reality they rail against it all the time.

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Permalink Reply by Scott on August 10, 2009 at 10:34pm

For psychology you could try Steven Pinker. He is one of the few Harvard professors who write in a language for the common folk! The Blank Slate, The Language Instinct, The Stuff Of Thought, are a few of his books. He covers vast branches of evolutionary psychology from brain development and cognition to the evolution of language, etc...And he is an atheist!

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Permalink Reply by tbw on August 16, 2009 at 2:04am

Pinker is the -shit-. Just want to make that clear.

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Permalink Reply by Daniel on August 15, 2009 at 1:37pm

First off atheists worship no books, we are not Christians, Muslims, Jews, or any other religion. Atheism is not a religion we don't meet up every sunday and explain our love for gravity or the big bang or any other theory. We don't chant songs about it and convulse on the floor babbling in tongues.

Jezzy you are insulting atheists and painting everyone with the same brush. You think all atheists believe in Evolution which isn't true. You think we all are in favor of gay rights which isn't true. That we are all share views with Penn and Teller which isn't true and that we all use the flying spaghetti defense. None of that is true atheists are not all the same. The only thing atheists have in common is the lack in a belief of a deity. Whether you are an atheist or not you are spreading around false stigmas of who atheists are and what we believe. I'm surprised no one has said a word to you about it. We atheists need to correct this misconceptions of who atheists are.

Now a book i'd recommend is "50 reasons people give for believing in a god" by Guy P. Harrison. It was the first atheist book I've read. He bends over backwards to make theists happy from time to time but its a great book.

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Permalink Reply by Mel on August 16, 2009 at 1:46am

Jezzy you are insulting atheists and painting everyone with the same brush.

First off atheists worship no books, we are not Christians, Muslims, Jews, or any other religion. Atheism is not a religion we don't meet up every sunday and explain our love for gravity or the big bang or any other theory. We don't chant songs about it and convulse on the floor babbling in tongues.

I think she meant "worship" a bit less seriously than you're taking it. I also think it's clear from the way she used the examples that she was giving suggestions for books we might like to discuss.

And my attitude towards some books is close to a liberal Christian view of the bible. The "Wow, this is a book full of ideas I can use to make my life better, to improve the lives of others" sort of attitude. And my attitude to Terry Pratchett is damn close to worship.

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Permalink Reply by Daniel on August 16, 2009 at 2:27am

You fail to see the significance of whats going on Mel. Atheists are adopting theist labels to make the theists more comfortable with us. Thats the problem here. Atheism is NOT a religion and using words that are associated with religion is counter productive to breaking the stigmas and stereotypes that come along with being an atheist. Not only does she do that she then generalized what atheists believe by giving those specific examples which are the most stereotypic views that theists have of us. I'm telling her that painting all atheists with the same brush is counter productive because shes playing into those stereotypes and reinforcing them.

Now (i'm not going to be fair here) if you had the same attitude as most liberal Christians have for the bible about your books you wouldn't have read them and claim you know what message shes sending. By the way your reason for worshiping the book sounds like what I hear fundies say about the bible. If you hold the ideas of your book close that fine I've got no objection to it. I have objection to you using the theist label worship for it for the reasons I stated above.

Its bad enough that apologists run around saying atheists are just like other religions they have their doctrine and they hold their belief of evolution with as much faith as they hold in the bible. Thats simply not true and using their labels like worship only strengthens their resolve. It needs to be nipped in the butt. It can't when we cling to words like worship, belief, and try to pander to theists so we fit in with them.

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Permalink Reply by Mel on August 16, 2009 at 2:44am

Worship: v.tr.

1. To honor and love as a deity.
2. To regard with ardent or adoring esteem or devotion. See synonyms at revere1.

While applying 1. to any peice of literature, regardless of origin, is a bit daft, 2. is a perfectly legitimate explanation of how I feel about my favourite literature. Words have many meanings, some of them have different meanings in different contexts.

(And Terry Pratchett is a man :D. Sir Terry to the British, PTerry to the interwebs.)

And actually, I HAVE had discussions about how much a love a specific scientific theory. I really really love Bateman's Principle - it's just so beautiful and clean and tidy. Fisherian Runaway selection is just fantastic - its generates such beautiful but POINTLESS things (just like the internet I suppose, haha!). I do wax poetic about evolution and physics, but my poetry is only slightly better than Vogon poetry so I wont share.

I don't do it to be a "stereotypical atheist". I do it because I ADORE evolutionary theory and LOVE hardcore astrophysics.

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Permalink Reply by Daniel on August 19, 2009 at 11:31am

You don't seem to be refuting anything i'm saying Mel. If I understand you right you are trying to defend the use of the word worship ... but not really disputing anything I've previously said.

Honestly i'm opposed to using theistic labels (no duh >.<) and I don't see why we cant use a different label other than worship. Its along the same lines of when I hear theists say things like people such as Pat Robertson and his fundies aren't real Christians. The problem there is that all denominations of Christianity use the term "Christian" to identify themselves. When the media says "Christians" bomb abortion clinic, for example, it becomes very hard to tell the difference between those who are terrorists and those who aren't. I've presented them with the same question, why not use a different label, and they bitch and moan and never really answer the question.

The same applies here, in order for theists not to associate atheists with a religion we cannot use the words commonly associated with a religion. Even if a word like worship has a few meanings it is most commonly associated with the theistic worship of deities or the bible. Let's find a different word to use, I like "adore" and "love". Words like "respect" or "strongly agree with" come to mind as well.

Also I never heard of Bateman's Principle i'm gonna go look it up lol. I'd have posted sooner but site went down and I forgot about it >./body>

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Permalink Reply by Daniel on August 19, 2009 at 4:56pm

wtf why do I have an end body tag at the end of my post?

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Permalink Reply by Mel on August 19, 2009 at 5:42pm

My point is that English is MY language too. It's not just the language of religious people. When I want to say something, I want to use the most appropriate words I know. I have been proud of my vocab since I was 10 and I'm not going to change the words I use because someone else has decided they mean something else than what they really do.
I damn well WILL use "retarded" when I mean "did not develop as expected". Damn PC-ness to heck.
I will use the word worship, if and when, it is appropriate. I will not be limited by other people's expectations of what the word means - I WILL USE IT CORRECTLY.
I will say "theory" when I mean "collection of principles that explain a set of phenonema" and "hypothesis" when I mean "idea I am testing at this particular instance" and I don't CARE that 95% of the population doesn't understand that they don't mean the same thing.
I used the word "coup" in a text message today and if the other person doesn't get it I'm going to respond with "coup d'etat" and let him use google dictionary.

I will not accept other people appropriating words for themselves and themselves only. I will not give up words I have every right to use. I will not give up meanings of words. English is my language too. I WILL NOT BOW TO PRESSURE TO CHANGE MY USAGE OF IT.

And my point about Batemans principle is that you criticised Jezzy for "painting everyone with the same brush." while declaring that atheists don't "meet up every sunday and explain our love for gravity or the big bang or any other theory". THIS ATHEIST DOES. So please stop declaring what all atheists do.

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