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Yes there is no God, but dont tell the maid.

some times i find its not helpful to discuss atheism with believers or trying to convert them

, maybe to keep them working hard in this life , let them live with hoop

some times im not sure they will be good humans without believing in some God watching them....

like Nietzsche said:yes there is no god but dont tell the maid ..she willl steal the household :)

trying hard to write good english :)

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Permalink Reply by Tom Thompson on April 15, 2010 at 6:10am

There is a lot to be said for approaching religion objectively. For most of us ex-theists it is difficult to be objective about the subject.

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Permalink Reply by Murtad Fitri on April 13, 2010 at 6:12pm

Fahad,
Actually, I think what many people subconsciously fear, is a loss of power, particularly the religious people whose power depends on religion. I mean not just the ruler at the top, but even a religious father will resist any attempts to reform. So, I feel the people most likely to push for reform and even apostasise are the disenfranchised and disempowered youth.

I often think in terms of power interactions in society. For example, America in Iraq eventually defeated Al-Qaeda by empowering the sunni tribes. That was the secret. So the lesson is: watch who you disempower, because your enemy could empower them to fight you.

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Permalink Reply by Murtad Fitri on April 12, 2010 at 6:03am

I agree with you about how Muslims are conditioned and so on.
What I mean when I say that humans have an innate (built-in) sense of morality is that through evolution we have got a sense that if you do wrong to others, it will not pay off. So there's a cost-benefit assessment module somewhere in our brains. Good scientific studies have shown through the Trolley problem that this is so.

See also this video:
'Morality: From the Heavens or From Nature?' by Dr. Andy Thomson
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnXmDaI8IEo

and this one:
Religion is The Great Hijacker Part 3 Morality
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItjY3U7cjGw

Good to have you here T.A. Dahar contributing to this interesting subject. I don't know what it's like being an apostate of Islam in Singapore. I imagine it's also tough. But thank goodness for the internet we don't feel too lonely.

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Permalink Reply by Murtad Fitri on April 13, 2010 at 5:14am

What we both agree on is that religion is not the source of our morality. Religious people like to claim it is, but it is clearly not. Christopher Hitchens is very good at debunking this myth.
See http://richarddawkins.net/articles/779

The Trolley problem shows scientific evidence across cultures that at least that apsect of our morality is innate. If any scientist has a problem with this evidence, they are free to carry out their own research, which they can publish for peer review. Scientists are always open minded.

As for other aspects of our morals, I conceed that we should not be too dogmatic until we have sound scientific evidence either way. That's what's great about science. We don't make claims we cannot prove. Our knowledge is constantly improving. We follow the evidence wherever it takes us; we don't blindly follow tradition or authority. And we believe a theory with the level of conviction that is proportional to the strength of the evidence. For example, the theory that the earth is round and not flat is pretty certain, as is the theory of gravity etc. But the theory that there are other universes out there, falls into the speculation category. But physicists fully accept that.
One of my favourite videos on the internet is the following:
http://richarddawkins.net/articles/3986

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Permalink Reply by Joe Henry on April 13, 2010 at 6:58pm

I don't know about that, I think as Humans we try to exert control over situations that we have not real control over. This naturally leads to some sort of super natural explanation for how things work so we feel we have some control over our lives and our surroundings. Now I am not saying this is correct or in any way helpful but I think that humans do reach for something beyond our selves. I have been an atheist for a number of years and I still catch my self some times trying to bargain with God. This might just be a religious upbringing but I feel that it is me trying to influence something I have no control over.

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Permalink Reply by Round Peg on April 11, 2010 at 9:44am

As a theist I tried persuading others of my beliefs indiscriminately for the sake of their eternal souls. As a non-theist I find discussing my beliefs with others very helpful for building mutual understanding, but persuading others of my beliefs to be less important. No souls need saving. And on a here-and-now level, I agree with you: conversion to non-theism may benefit some (for me it was freedom from the notion that everyone around me was going to hell), but may destroy others in any number of ways (such as those you mentioned). Everyone is so complex, so different! For one I would rather see a moral theist who is satisfied with his life than a non-theist who left his morality behind with his God.

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Permalink Reply by Fahad al on April 11, 2010 at 6:27pm

believers need courage more than Intelligence to be atheists

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Permalink Reply by Round Peg on April 11, 2010 at 9:22pm

That's very interesting. For who, being as certain of God's existence as he is his own, when faced with facts that don't match up, could fearlessly follow his Intellect toward unbelief?

And welcome to atheist nexus by the way, it's nice to meet you!

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Permalink Reply by Fahad al on April 28, 2010 at 2:13pm

thanks happy to be here :) its really like virtual refugee camp for me :)

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Permalink Reply by Murtad Fitri on April 13, 2010 at 7:04am

For most Muslims in the world, leaving Islam would be committing social suicide, even if they are not living under Sharia law. So if they have any doubts about the truth of Islam, they will not let those doubts grow, because they know what the consequences of leaving or even questioning the faith would be.
I left because I live in the West and I felt I had to be honest with myself and take a stand against what is clearly wrong. And I refuse to be exploited and controlled by the ruling elite.

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Permalink Reply by Round Peg on April 13, 2010 at 11:21am

Thank you for explaining that for me. Coming from a Christian background where there are no legal consequences for leaving the faith, and the social consequences are less severe, I see now I took away the wrong meaning. After a little follow-up reading, I'd say you've helped better appreciate the religious tolerance of the people around me...