Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by J Greuel on November 15, 2010 at 8:20am

"When you fully value yourself, you don't let other people trample on you, at all."

If she wasn't wearing a tight skirt

"these women have severe shortage in self worth and are willing to ply themselves to the social expectations of marriage/children/home that they do not realize they had options all along."

If she hadn't gone on a date with him

I feel someone with properly developped self esteem simply can not let that happen.

It doesn't happen to nice girls.


Please take another look at your words and try to see beyond your privilege.

You think you would take the 'ultimate' step. Based on my considerable knowledge of psychology I will tell you this fact: You can be broken. All people can. It's easy to brag about what you'd do in a situation that you will probably never encounter. It's far, far different to actually face the reality.

You can brag about being strong and having self-esteem. 1 in 6 women my age are sexually assaulted, most of them by someone they knew and even trusted. If it were simply a matter of having self-esteem, would the number really be that high? Is your opinion of women really that low?

And do you honestly think you can solve bullying by telling the victims to change their behavior? Do you really think there is some sort of behavior women engage in that encourages men to rape or hit them? Why then, are you focusing on the behavior of the women? Are they the ones at fault?

Direct your words against those who actually have the control in the situation. As a woman, I don't make the decision as to whether or not I am sexually assaulted. That's entirely in the hands of the person doing the assaulting. As a woman, I don't make the decision as to whether or not a man thinks I should be beaten into my place. We've been running this 'oh teach the women to defend themselves' crap for years now, and guess what? Doesn't work.

You know what does work? What will help? Look at sexual harassment in the workplace. First stance, 'oh teach the women to change their behavior to avoid being targets.' Didn't work. 'Teach the men what sexual harassment is and nail their asses to the wall if they engage in it?' wow, check it out, instances of sexual harassment dropped dramatically.

Stop blaming the victim. If you want to change the situation, focus on the ones actually responsible. Teach your boys to value women. Teach your boys that they need to get a yes rather than play the 'does no mean no' game. Teach your boys that women have feelings, are intelligent, are worthy. That is, of course, if you actually want to fix the situation.

Permalink Reply by Tom Pandelaere on November 15, 2010 at 12:21pm

Appears impossible to reply at the bottom of this. Perhaps a browser problem. In short, I should like to say the following.

This is why I do not date. I am afraid of myself.
I can tell you that being the only somewhat educated member of a kin/clan is not comfortable. For you see, not being a misogynist is traditionally regarded as effete. For a male, being effete - let alone feminist or anything of that laughable ilk - constitutes agreeing to ostracism. I cannot speak for the US, but in rural Europe, the concept of masculinity is largely based upon knowing how to get your collection of she-creatures laid. This, of course, harks back to the good old days of unspoilt Catholic respectability. The highest accomplishment in life, quoth Mister Pastor, is a wife who cooks for you and raises your children.

Now, if your male mind has been poisoned by the degenerated idea that a female might perhaps be capable of having her own ideas/intellectual interests (even a career or something; how absurd is that - and then this art thing: that's for rich people, is it not?), and does not necessarily have to procreate, the farmers and labourers have a special mechanism in place, whereby the deranged one is neatly removed from the realm of normality, thus obviating both parental responsibility and societal involvement.

I have been in love three times. Each time, I was approached, not vice versa. Each occasioned either suicide attempts or psychological terror campaigns. As much as I, 'the degree nerd', long for an independent, erudite, outspoken woman with a life of her own, I cannot repress this upbringing of mine.
Which is why I shall remain a hermit. Society screwed men up, not the other way round.

Permalink Reply by J Greuel on November 15, 2010 at 1:52pm

Unfortunately, since men have been the ones in power in society for the past...well, pretty much since the dawn of time, it is men who created the society, and ultimately, it must be men who must either change or be changed.

Until men accept that women are their equals, without caveat or this 'well women are special in their way' BS, but as actual equals, the problem doesn't stand a chance of being fixed.

That means when a woman is raped, instead of looking at her actions to find a solution, we need to look at the actions and attitudes of the rapist. And that means when a woman is abused, instead of looking at her actions to find a solution, we need to look at the actions and attitude of the abuser. Instead of blaming the victim, we need to fix the problem.

The problem is: Society in general does not view women as equal to men in worth.

Permalink Reply by Tom Pandelaere on November 15, 2010 at 6:54pm

To be clear: I certainly do not hope you expect me to defend men. I never chose to be one and never enjoyed being one. Solely biology makes me, if needs must, identify with this caste.
Asking a present-day Western man to feel guilt or at least responsibility for regarding women as inferior is like asking me to feel responsible for the fact that my great-grandfather was a Nazi.
It is the mentality that was instilled in us which constitutes the problem. As a well-read, progressive individual (somewhat haughty as well), I constantly force myself to uphold the ideal that women are my equal and that I have no right to force them into behaving or appearing how I would like. But there is the rub: everywhere around me, I perceive vestiges of this patriarchal mindset with which boys are imbrued.
Now, I would not be capable of rape, if only for being too weak and melancholic and soppy a person; I do, however, experience that I was never taught how to deal with rejection. Men do not get rejected, since it is women who are approached by men and then make the decision. This, in spite of all my enlightened ideas, has bestowed many an identity problem upon me.
I would dearly love to change this mentality, but until you can force each and every man to acknowledge that he has no 'right' over a woman, my prospects in that respect are pessimistic.

That said, I hardly know anything of American legislation, but in general, I do get the impression that Western Europe is gradually overcoming the fixed idea that a 'strong woman' must somehow support an even stronger man, certainly in the North. Domestic violence is taken very seriously, and I know of a few cases where the woman was the aggressor (not that that is something I strive to achieve).
Not having offspring and not intending to get one, I cannot judge for gender roles within the family.

As a recalcitrant individualist, I do not feel in any way responsible for a society whereof I have never really been part. My views on gender, therefore, remain but the musings of a recluse.

Permalink Reply by J Greuel on November 15, 2010 at 7:00pm

Your grandfather was a Nazi. But you regard women as inferior. His actions are beyond your control. Yours are not. His mindset is beyond your control. Yours is not.

You should feel responsible for your actions, for you ARE responsible for your actions.

And you are a part of society, whether you like it or not. If nothing else, you are part of this society, right here, having this conversation, that you have willingly come in and joined.

Permalink Reply by Tom Pandelaere on November 15, 2010 at 7:42pm

I have joined this conversation because I felt engaged by the topic. Treating women as equals is what I want to do. On a rational plane, this is logic itself. There is, however, a lurking remnant from childhood (which I would rather not go into) which complicates my feelings. This is why I am reluctant to engage with women.

Of course I am responsible for my own actions and thoughts. But do I have control over them? I avoid society as much as I can. You have probably heard of the impostor syndrome: 'I should not be behind this desk, negotiating with women. I belong in a factory, making crude sexist remarks.'

I beg to differ with your claim that I regard women as inferior. My entire education disagrees with that. But sometimes it feels artificial.
I am talking about the difference between that which is acquired and that which is unwittingly instilled in one.
And I have no interest whatsoever in fighting with you, as I have grown weary of conflicts with women, or people, for that matter.

Permalink Reply by J Greuel on November 15, 2010 at 7:54pm

We are 'fighting'? I thought we were having a discussion.

"I beg to differ with your claim that I regard women as inferior. My entire education disagrees with that. But sometimes it feels artificial."

If you do not regard women as inferior, why does it feel artificial to regard women as equals?

You admit to being reluctant to engage with women, because you find it difficult not to treat them as your inferiors due to your upbringing? Am I interpreting your words correctly?

Women are people.

You want to treat women as equals, then do so. Women are people. Treat them like people.

Permalink Reply by Tom Pandelaere on November 16, 2010 at 4:17pm

'We are 'fighting'? I thought we were having a discussion.'

I tend to regard every discussion as a fight, because I always think the worst of everyone.

If you do not regard women as inferior, why does it feel artificial to regard women as equals?

Because I'm the only one who does that?

'You admit to being reluctant to engage with women, because you find it difficult not to treat them as your inferiors due to your upbringing? Am I interpreting your words correctly?'

Oh yes, but there is also the inability to attach myself to people, which has other reasons altogether and is gender-free. But being drawn to women, they are more dangerous for me than men could be.

'Women are people.
You want to treat women as equals, then do so. Women are people. Treat them like people.'

You're asking a misanthropist the wrong thing. I value a dog above any person, irrespective of their genitalia.

Permalink Reply by J Greuel on November 16, 2010 at 6:05pm

Ah. Unfortunately, I do not have a degree in psychology and am unable to help you with your issues. I wish you all the best, but see no reason to continue discussing society with you.

Permalink Reply by Tom Pandelaere on November 17, 2010 at 11:14am

Oh, never mind. Society is not that interesting.
If I have learnt anything from life, it is that true equality comes from the right medication.

Permalink Reply by Tom Pandelaere on November 12, 2010 at 2:37pm

Funny how it came to be thus. The ancient settlement of Çatal Hüyük apparently was a matriarchal society, and up North, in the Finland region, there must have been a population where women were in power; it bestowed about a third of Germanic vocabulary upon us. Some time round the advent of modern monotheistic religions, the balance has obviously shifted. The old Celts and Germans, by all indications, did not really consider women second-class; that is a vestige of Grecian and Judeo-Roman influence.

Which leads me to wonder: is there any monotheistic religion where God is female? I'd be interested to know.

Briefly, I agree with you in every respect. And indeed, I think it a pity that there are so few atheist women around. Religion completely puts me off during the very first conversation.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by TNT666 on November 16, 2010 at 6:22pm

Tho I usually blame a history of religiosity for most of female subservience in our society, I am intrigued at how societies such as Asian countries came up with female subservience. I know little about asian religions, and if Buddhism and Confucianism were "such great atheistic" philosophies, I'd expect their societies to treat females a lot better, when in fact they're worse... :(

I have long been fascinated with matriarchal societies. Female skeletons of these tribes tended to be significantly larger than in other societies, and I think that social positioning may play a larger part in sexual dimorphism than is currently thought. Humanity in the past 2000 years has been keeping women down, and as in any litter context, inferiors feed less and remain smaller and emotionally underdeveloped.

• ▶ Reply

• ‹ Previous
• 1
• 2
• 3
• 4
• Next ›
• Page