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Permalink Reply by LarissaFae on August 6, 2009 at 1:23am

What erks me, isn't the angry female zealots who are in need of a good shag.

Maybe they're not angry because they need a good shag. Maybe they're angry because when they're upset over being coddled, when they're upset over being treated like second-class citizens, when they express even a mild irritation at the way they're treated/paid/etc., a good portion of men go off about how they're "femi-Nazi's" (ready to take over Poland and engage in genocide at a moment's notice!), and/or "in need of a good shag."

It's condescending crap like that that makes me angry enough to spit. It's the assumption that women aren't supposed to get angry, but it's a man's right, nay, obligation to get angry and punch things, it's the assumption that because women have uterus's and vaginas, all we want is a big, strong man to protect us and keep us safe in a delicate glass display case whilst we pop out baby after baby, it's the assumption that a woman even wants a sexual relationship with a man, it's the assumption that women are useless in every way if they don't have a man. That is what pisses a lot of women off, myself included.

When I moved into a studio apartment, my very first apartment on my own, my neighbour said to me, not, "Are you moving in with anyone?", not, "Are you moving in with your boyfriend?", but, "Oh, you're moving in with your boyfriend. Nice!" It was the assumption that a woman wouldn't possibly be living on her own without a man, when I seriously doubt that the man who said that to me would have said the same thing if I were a man.

[soapbox] You never mentioned this, and I'm not griping at you specifically (unless you've claimed the following), but I'm also pissed off when people claim that women have done nothing for the fields of science, engineering, etc. Next time a doctor x-rays you, thank physicist and chemist Marie Curie, for her work in radioactivity. The next time a police officer or service-member gets shot and lives because they were wearing Kevlar, or you're able to stop your vehicle in time to prevent an accident, thank Stephanie Kwolek. Women are quite capable of giving human-kind wonderful advancements, thank you very much. [/soapbox]

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Permalink Reply by LarissaFae on August 6, 2009 at 3:45am

True! Also, a good deal of the inventions that "men" came up with were really their wives' creations, since women couldn't own property or legally patent anything until . . . until they could.

Here's a partial list.

Sybilla Masters, for example, is often named as the first woman inv... There's more under the link.

And more.

And some North Carolina inventors.

I think somebody's prowling around outside my house. 'Scuse me, gotta go cap a bitch. :)

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Permalink Reply by mthoreau on August 6, 2009 at 4:02am

Good heavens! People make unfair assumptions about you without getting to know you first? My heart bleeds for your life of white middle class oppression. If only I could take you seriously then perhaps your great moral crusade might start making some headway.

You are the very definition of the sexist equivalent of the reverse racist your described in your previous post. That's the problem with third wave feminism, it has no concrete goals and results in a directionless angst and resentment that accomplishes nothing except to feed the the victimhood of someone who is actually quite privileged.

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Permalink Reply by LarissaFae on August 6, 2009 at 12:23pm

Wow. I explain several reasons why women get so pissed off at men, and give a personal example of a man assuming that I couldn't possibly live without a man, and you bring up race? Classy.

And I seriously doubt that your inability to take me seriously is a major obstruction to my moral crusade, as you put it. Seriously. But, since we're on that road, let me just say that I had to read your post three times before I got it, because once you brought up white middle-class oppression, all I could hear the English teacher from 10 Things I Hate About You's tirade against Julia Stiles' character wanting more Charlotte Bronte read in school.

I can't say that I would never make assumptions about someone, but I damn well would try my hardest to lay those assumptions aside until the person either proves them right, or proves them wrong.

I'm also not seeing where I'm sexist. Yes, if a certain amount of men act a certain way, then I'm going to start thinking that maybe all men act that way, but I'll also know that that's near-impossible, and will probably have several examples of men who DON'T act in that way (whatever that action might be). It doesn't mean that I'll hate every single man for that smaller group's actions; it DOES mean that I'll gripe about that smaller group's actions.

I'm sorry if I made it seem like I hate all men. I don't. I do hate it when men treat me like the examples that gave; if you believe that those given examples were perfectly reasonable actions on the part of men, I'm sorry I ever met you.

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Permalink Reply by Dallas the Phallus on August 7, 2009 at 2:01pm

That's the problem with third wave feminism, it has no concrete goals and results in a directionless angst and resentment that accomplishes nothing except to feed the the victimhood of someone who is actually quite privileged.

Like Jacqueline, I'm going to kind of take exception with mthoreau's statement above. First, I don't know what is meant by third wave feminism, but whatever it is, I doubt it has "no concrete goals". This comment is a little bit dismissive, too.

Now, while I do agree in general terms that American women are much more privileged than women in third world countries (which also applies to the GLBT community here which has it better than many countries, and the poor, who are not nearly as impovrished as some people in the world, and on and on...), I don't think it is necessarily right (or kind) to take such a dismissive attitude. I think a lot of it is relative to the society in which a woman lives. While women have it better here in the US, many don't have the same opportunity as men in the US, so it is relative to our society. Also, we can't just dismiss their legitimate concerns by suggesting that: You have it much better than women in Ethiopia, so just shut up and appreciate what you have! Which is the attitude that is often taken.

However, Jacqueline, I'm not sure that I understand your statement: It isn't men who face being subjected to fertility servitude...

As females, it is your biological role to bear children. Are you suggesting that this is somehow men's fault? I'm not clear. I can see how women have been held back and used as baby-makers in times past, without equal access, and without consideration for their welfare and interests, but surely things are not that bad now in the US. Is that what you mean?

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Permalink Reply by Dallas the Phallus on August 7, 2009 at 3:47pm

Understand. I just wanted be sure that that is what she meant, or was she complaining the biology made women a slave to gender and childbirth, which in a way, kind of sounds like what she might have been implying, unless I read it wrong.

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Permalink Reply by mthoreau on August 5, 2009 at 5:33pm

The narrative you just described is exactly what I'm talking about.

This is the narrative of the baby boomer feminist. The sexual revolution is over and the hippies won, it's time to move on. The Macho Neanderthal vs Enlightened Androgynous Metrosexual contest is no longer relevant. It doesn't matter if you like showtunes, football, beer, or sucking cocks who you are is not defined by your consumer habits.

Opinion #1 Women have been second class citizens for the majority of human history. However, we are not living in the 1600's or even the 1960's we are living right now and your dichotomy between sexist men and enlightened women/men is no longer applicable to the current social/political climate. There is still inequality to be sure, but simply blaming it on the same old causes of oppression and privilege are reductionist and do nothing to advance the debate. You are crusading against a phantom.

Opinion #2 It sounds like you are under the impression that directionless violence is an inherent characteristic of masculinity. How does that make you feel? If you feel guilty for being a man than you deserve your self loathing.

Opinion #3 Like I said, times have changed since the Miss America protest. I'm talking about the here and now. If you got beat up in high school then the people who beat you up are not relevant to what I'm talking about. The Neanderthal/Enlightened Metro dichotomy may very well still apply to them, but that is for another post. Your generation (raised on All in the Family and Maude) rebelled against the generation of Father Knows Best and it seems that a lot of you believe the same old fight is going on. However, maybe you should take a look at what cultural phenomena have emerged from your generations struggles and reexamine your premise.

Question #5 Ah, but there in lies the rub. If it isn't muscle cars and headbutts then what is it that makes you a man? Is it "you masculine side" perhaps you need to get in touch with your "masculine side" a little more. After all, you are male.

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Permalink Reply by mthoreau on August 5, 2009 at 8:03pm

First of all, my point is that we as a culture tend to approach the question of what masculinity means as relativistic. So in that sense, I am disturbed by the cultural and intellectual bankruptcy that has come to define this issue. It is not my responsibility to decide what ought to make you feel like you are a man, it is of course yours.

My gripe is that too many of us have lost interest in that question, or choose to answer it in the most convenient way possible. If you are not thinking about what defines you in relation to your gender then you are ignoring a very important part of your identity indeed.

Respectfully,
mthoreau

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Permalink Reply by Skylar on August 5, 2009 at 11:56pm

Fair enough. Why the gripe, though? Although it is sometimes controversial, what makes the host of scientific data available on a wide range of topics concerning gender and differences between genders unsatisfactory? Is your gripe more about behavioural characteristics of men?

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Permalink Reply by mthoreau on August 6, 2009 at 4:08am

My gripe is with the culture at large surrounding the issue, but more specifically the behaviors and assumptions of males who have internalized the more militant branches of second wave feminism.

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Permalink Reply by Craig on August 5, 2009 at 10:47am

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Permalink Reply by Dallas the Phallus on August 5, 2009 at 5:50pm

Yes, men need to grow up. I think 1.) Americans embrace the victimhood mentality way too quickly (I have been known to be guilty of this myself, which is why I can recognize it in others), and this--for lack of a better word--emasculates and demoralizes us, and 2.) I think consumerist marketing strategies are directed at making us feel inadequate as people and as men. Once made to feel inadequate, we are then trained to go buy XYZ product to make us feel manly, sexy, whole, fun, or whatever, again.

Did you see my invite to my new group? This would be a perfect discussion for that group.

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