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What Is Chivalry, And Why Should We Care?
I'm going to apologize in advance-- I'm not nearly as eloquent as many of you. I'm one of your younger, sillier Atheists. I hope though that you still give my ideas a chance. Who knows, maybe my directness will prove refreshing!
Chivalry has always baffled me. In my mind it generally equates to "Men repressing the asshole side of their personality so that you will bear their young". To others, it means, "Open the door for me, pussy." I've always felt like men sort of do that sort of thing because their parents have always told them they have to. Like church. But maybe I'm wrong?
There's this boy in my art class. He took one of my besties to prom. He happened to hear that I went to a feminist lecture and he laughed a light (but direct), condescending laugh... which I ignored because I'm so... feminine. A few days later, I walk into class, and it's the first period of the day so the chairs are all stacked on top of the desks. I go to take my chair down, and this kid immediately starts yelling and runs over, takes my chair, and sets it down. I yell at him, mostly joking, and I point to Joe, sitting across from me and ask why he had to steal my chair instead of Joe's.
Him: "Because Joe's a MAN!"
Me: "Haahh, so you stole my chair because I'm a woman?!?" <-- Thought I was joking
Him: "YES!! ...It's not a BAD thing..."
Me: *says nothing in utter shock*
I marvel at this boy's idea of the world. He's in for a good shot of disillusionment in college. I've heard men complain at how women will get mad if you open a door for them, and also get mad if you won't. I've never seen this happen, personally, I think it's mostly a paranoia.
This is a bit different. This is not anything groundbreaking or horrid, but it did make me think. It's the equivalent of stopping a girl from 20 feet back, pushing her away from the door, and then opening it for her. It doesn't make anyone's life any easier. Meanwhile, poor Joe may be carrying a stack of boxes, and no courtesy is shed upon him.
So what have I done to deserve the "respect" that is portrayed through the opening of doors, walking of home, and picking up of pencils? (Maybe I'm not accustomed. When I went to prom, and the door was opened, I would literally wait a second or two before realizing it was for me.)
It sounds nice enough on the surface, but really, I don't think my vagina qualifies me for anything special that we can't bestow upon men as well. I've never been a huge fan of the feminism where we treat women like men. Really, I think we should be treating men like women.
Chivalry has always baffled me. In my mind it generally equates to "Men repressing the asshole side of their personality so that you will bear their young". To others, it means, "Open the door for me, pussy." I've always felt like men sort of do that sort of thing because their parents have always told them they have to. Like church. But maybe I'm wrong?
There's this boy in my art class. He took one of my besties to prom. He happened to hear that I went to a feminist lecture and he laughed a light (but direct), condescending laugh... which I ignored because I'm so... feminine. A few days later, I walk into class, and it's the first period of the day so the chairs are all stacked on top of the desks. I go to take my chair down, and this kid immediately starts yelling and runs over, takes my chair, and sets it down. I yell at him, mostly joking, and I point to Joe, sitting across from me and ask why he had to steal my chair instead of Joe's.
Him: "Because Joe's a MAN!"
Me: "Haahh, so you stole my chair because I'm a woman?!?" <-- Thought I was joking
Him: "YES!! ...It's not a BAD thing..."
Me: *says nothing in utter shock*
I marvel at this boy's idea of the world. He's in for a good shot of disillusionment in college. I've heard men complain at how women will get mad if you open a door for them, and also get mad if you won't. I've never seen this happen, personally, I think it's mostly a paranoia.
This is a bit different. This is not anything groundbreaking or horrid, but it did make me think. It's the equivalent of stopping a girl from 20 feet back, pushing her away from the door, and then opening it for her. It doesn't make anyone's life any easier. Meanwhile, poor Joe may be carrying a stack of boxes, and no courtesy is shed upon him.
So what have I done to deserve the "respect" that is portrayed through the opening of doors, walking of home, and picking up of pencils? (Maybe I'm not accustomed. When I went to prom, and the door was opened, I would literally wait a second or two before realizing it was for me.)
It sounds nice enough on the surface, but really, I don't think my vagina qualifies me for anything special that we can't bestow upon men as well. I've never been a huge fan of the feminism where we treat women like men. Really, I think we should be treating men like women.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Black Magick Woman on -
Down here in the south, I don't see it much as chivalry, as much as just good manners. You open the door for me, I'll open the door for you. I've held doors for both men and women while on campus, and they for me. If I drop my pencil near your desk, it'd be nice if you kick it to me or pick it up for me.
I had an experience with a chivalrous guy I dated for about 2-3 months (Christian). He'd walk on the edge of the sidewalk, so that if a car came by and hit a puddle, it'd splash him first. Now that'd be alright if it had actually rained...oh..I don't know..sometime that week. He'd open my car door, open doors in general, (try) to pull out my seat, etc. It annoyed me a little, especially when he tried pulling out my seat, but I just let him do his thing. I did, however, continue to do things on my own, and for him, which he laughed off (if we both went for the door).
Feminism (to me) doesn't necessarily mean treating men like women, or treating women like men, but just getting more on equal terms. Being treated like the human beings we all are, no matter the sex. Don't think you can't hit me, because I'm a woman. Hit me, I'll knock the crap out of you, then open the door for ya =).
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Permalink Reply by Prog Rock Girl on -
I'm the same, I open the door for anyone--especially if they have difficulty walking, or are carrying heavy burdens. Mostly I think the door-opening thing is a social awkwardness, though. If the person is too far away you feel kind of foolish, and don't know whether you should hold the door or not. Then there's the repeatedly saying "thank you" to a person who held the double doors open. And the people who don't hear you and say "ahem, you're welcome"--You held the door open for me. Do you want a Nobel Peace Prize?
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Permalink Reply by Little Name Atheist on -
ahem, you're welcome
Ha! Do you tell them to turn up their hearing aid?
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Permalink Reply by Jezzy on -
I do believe in equality but treating each other equally how? It's hard to describe but even if you're treating people equally you're treating them all a certain way-- maybe with courtesy, maybe with distaste, etc. If women get the polite end of the stick I think we should even it out in that direction.
I like the good manners idea of it. And no, it's not as if I mind guys opening the door for me, but it makes me uncomfortable when I get the idea it's expressly to do with my woman...ness.
John- He does try too hard. He's the condescending type, but accidentally. The type who gives you advice when you don't want it. Ha, he's a nice guy though, mostly. And luckily not too attached to my friend.
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Permalink Reply by Black Magick Woman on
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Maybe they're pulling the door for you just because..not all guys are doing it just because you're a woman.
Treat others how you want to be treated. If you don't want them opening doors, then just stare at them, wait for them to go in (or shove them in), and open the door yourself. Or just take it at face value as a kind gesture. Are you gonna walk around all day mad at men who open the door, but happy at women who do the same thing, simply because you hate the idea of being treated differently for your gender?
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Permalink Reply by Jezzy on
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There's a boy at my school who will open the door when students are leaving and just stand there for minutes, leaning it open. He's quite remarkable.
I don't think I've ever gotten mad at a guy who opened a door, or wanted to. I'm very courteous. In general though, it's not something I'm hugely exposed to. I will say, however, that I do hate the idea of being treated differently for my gender. I live in a small city in Utah where there's no diversity, and a lot of old-fashioned ideals. But how can I attack men, when women are reinforcing these roles? More than the social aspect, where everyone seems to have their own idea, I hate being spoken to in a directly "different" way. I hate condescension, and worrying about breaking into a job market and fitting in that niche between submissive housewife and insane neo-feminist.
Or I could just move out of Utah.
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Permalink Reply by Johannes S. on -
Is it just me, or do I see a correlation between religiosity and adult entertainment?
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Permalink Reply by Aaron S. (USA) on -
I keep saying it :P Just because people are religious doesn't mean they stop paying for sex. They just feel more guilty about it later.
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Permalink Reply by Apollo the judge on -
Ok here we go,let me kinda break it down for u very inteligent youth out there !sike! naww I'm just gonna freestyle it to ya u dig.Awwww chivalry such an old code of honor for the tight wads of old.Anyhow I kinda take pride on trying to b very polite and I try to open doors for anyone even christians.I have helped old ladies cross the street and I can assure u nothing happen after that.As a Latin male I think I speak for those who share the same cultural background, u might be on to something when u say a guy opens the door assuming that a woman open other things for us.I am guilty of that myself,but maybe u r being too hard on those guys.I mean that boy @ ur school either wants to do the whole school or he's just putting up an act.I also think u might be a bit insecure or u just never really had the doors open for u before.The trhuth is for most of us guy we r even more insecure cuz some of us grow with this fear of not dissapointing our father thinking we do not
like women not that there is anything wrong with that.But I belive that we grow with this image of women being fragile sentitive and sweet that we feel we have to be protective and plus we posses more muscle density in some cases than women,so those same issues make something trigger in our mind that makes us feel a bit more superior. Chivalry is not bad as long as it has no strings attached.There is also the notion that as a male grows he starts respecting women even more no wonder around here most young girls like to date older guys cuz of the maturity factor.Not saying that's the route u should go.I think u will figure it
out in due time.I leave u with a very famous saying in our culture:
A woman should never b abused or battered
Not even if the battery is committed with a rose
petal.
Pretty cool hu.
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Permalink Reply by Olga Spelts (Human Bean) on -
I dont think it was because a guy just happened to open the door for her but that he pushed his way into her space and started taking down the chair without considering her. It was all about him building himself up by 'helping the vulnerable helpless girl.' That combined with his condescending dismissal of her feminism was more like jerk behavior. She also did politely point out that she didnt appreciate it. Sometimes guys like that push their ways onto women who clearly dont want it in order to reinforce something to themselves by impotizing women. I've dealt with guys like that and they are annoying big time. When its like that its beyond simple recipricol politeness and more like forced gender roles.
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Permalink Reply by Stephen Moore on -
Chivalry is a rather anachronistic habit. Essentially, it is about seeing women as 'the weaker sex', in need of special consideration and protection by virtue of being female. I'm wary of any person that laments the decline of chivalry.
Rather than chivalry, I favour courtesy, politeness, and manners; these can be extended to any person, without regard to their sex. It respects the person as a person, not because of their sex.
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