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Westburo Baptist

I fully support First Amendment free speech - if we don't allow Westburo Baptist, the KKK, Neo-Nazis, Black Panthers, etc, to voice their opinions in public, how will we know who the fruitcakes are? But the constitutional right to free speech is different than making a nuisance of yourself at a family's grief.

But I will make this observation . . . you NEVER read about Atheists doing shit like this. Atheists don't fly planes into buildings, don't turn themselves into "Holy Explosions", don't shoot Doctors because they perform services they don't like, don't rape, pillage and burn the folks in the next village because they believe differently.

So . . . someone tell me again how 'people can't be moral WITHOUT religion????

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Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Prog Rock Girl on March 7, 2011 at 5:53pm

When I come across religious fundamentalist running their mouths I usually do say "keep talking, show everyone what you're really like..."

Permalink Reply by Sue Arizona on March 8, 2011 at 10:03am

Some of us that are members of the PGR had this to say about that ruling: They have the right to free speech in this way as long as we don't get our rights taken away to stand tall between them and their victims

Permalink Reply by Meddlesome on March 6, 2011 at 3:11am

Stalin studied at theological college. Then turned himself into god. one of the best arguments against religion and dictatorship IMHO.

Mao admitted his mistakes and resigned. China then reversed many of his policies and has been better ever since.

Permalink Reply by Smiley Courtney on March 6, 2011 at 8:31pm

I think you will find that these two conducted their attack on established religions, not out of any contempt for faith in a higher power, but as a way to limit the competition. They prohibited other religions for the same reason they prohibited other political parties - they competed with THEIR religion. Faith in the State.

Mao's Little Red Book was even referred to as the "Bible".

But these two examples alone do not prove or disprove anything. And I agree - the rejection of blind faith does NOT magically transform someone into being a model citizen or moral exemplar. I simply think it is telling that so many glaring examples of outrageous moral behavior can be found among those who claim the moral high ground. Just as it is telling that a person's propensity for religious faith is inversely proportional to education level.

And, I think that it IS telling that horrendous acts are NOT done in the name of Atheism.

Permalink Reply by Joseph P on March 6, 2011 at 10:14pm

Hmmmmmmm, the First Amendment doesn't really apply in most of those situations, though. It's not respect; it's the fact that they're not public venues. The only one I see where it might still apply is the public libraries. Those are wholly government-owned. I'm not sure what sort of case you might have, if you wanted to challenge someone who tried to take away your right to run screaming through a library.

Permalink Reply by Hilde on March 7, 2011 at 12:06am

What does the Patriot Act have to do with the 1st Amendment?

Permalink Reply by Hilde on March 7, 2011 at 9:44pm

Uhm... while yes, that does violate the 4th amendment, everything you mentioned has absolutely nothing to do with free speech.

Permalink Reply by Smiley Courtney on March 7, 2011 at 6:57am

Joseph and Hilde,

I think Hanna is making more of a logical argument than a strictly legal one, and I find it an interesting one. It does get to the heart of why we consider the Supreme Court ruling legally correct yet morally perverse.

Civilized people agree that while no one should fear government reprisal if they speak their opinion, public discourse, or at least behavior in public, should rightfully have certain curtailments to it. And those can, and perhaps should extend beyond simply not yelling fire in a crowded theater.

Permalink Reply by Joseph P on March 7, 2011 at 5:13pm

I dunno, man, that perspective is a little simplistic. The Freedom of Speech issue is always subject to 'the right time and place'. You see it at political rallies and on TV shows all the time. I'm reminded of this segment:

If you're holding a public event that isn't sponsored by the government, and someone says something you don't like, you can throw them out. Whoever pays the piper controls the tune and can legally and morally squelch dissent. If someone else wants to say something, they can damned well set up their own forum in which to say it.

If we want to get around assholes like the WBC, we need to have something like renting out the area around the grave for the day, when you're burying someone. Then, it's YOUR event, and you can kick out anyone you don't want there. That would do an end-run around the First Amendment.

Permalink Reply by Prog Rock Girl on March 7, 2011 at 5:59pm

I didn't catch most of what the audience crazies were saying, did you?

Permalink Reply by Joseph P on March 7, 2011 at 6:46pm

Nope, they were off-mike. All that I got was that they were the extreme 9/11 Truthers who think that George W. Bush destroyed the World Trade Center towers and faked the plane hitting the Pentagon. That's all extrapolated from Bill Maher's comments, though.

Permalink Reply by Joseph P on March 7, 2011 at 6:55pm

I think the more direct route is to just include rental of a HUGE chunk of the cemetery into the costs of a funeral. You then get control of that area for the duration of the funeral, and you can kick out anyone not invited. Problem solved. Granted it would take a lot of legal wrangling, since you'd effectively be renting out land purchased by others for their burial. I haven't thought through the details of that, including how to get the approval of the huge numbers of deceased owners.

Yeah, Bill Maher has his issues with the woo. At least his seem to be restricted to new-age woo, like homeopathy. Anyway, his publicists have gotten a bit better control of him and have gotten him to tone it down a little, with that.