There's way too many threads scattered all over this site [*] - this is for all of them. This is a pretty neat and universal retort to all of the lunatics that consider healthcare reform tantamount to a communist takeover. I've reproduced the whole thing instead of the usual minimal snippet, because it deserves it, and you can just copy and paste it for any cretins that choose to pollute your mailbox -

Freepers, Birthers, Morons of all stripe, You didn't get mad...

You didn't get mad when the Supreme Court stopped a legal recount and appointed a President.

You didn't get mad when Cheney allowed Energy company officials to dictate energy policy.

You didn't get mad when a covert CIA operative got outed.

You didn't get mad when the Patriot Act got passed.

You didn't get mad when we illegally invaded a country that posed no threat to us.

You didn't get mad when we spent over 600 billion(and counting) on said illegal war.

You didn't get mad when over 10 billion dollars just disappeared in Iraq.

You didn't get mad when you saw the Abu Grahib photos.

You didn't get mad when you found out we were torturing people.

You didn't get mad when the government was illegally wiretapping Americans.

You didn't get mad when we didn't catch Bin Laden.

You didn't get mad when you saw the horrible conditions at Walter Reed.

You didn't get mad when we let a major US city drown.

You didn't get mad when the deficit hit the trillion dollar mark.

You finally got mad when.. when... wait for it... when the government decided that people in America deserved the right to see a doctor if they are sick. Yes, illegal wars, lies, corruption, torture, stealing your tax dollars to make the rich richer, are all ok with you but helping other Americans... well fuck that. That about right? You know it is.

You people have all lost your fucking minds. You are selfish, greedy, obnoxious, narcissistic, and frankly... stupid. Your pathetic little misspelled protest signs are embarrassing. Maybe you ought to find the smart person in your midst and let them make up all the signs, cause man, you look like a bunch of idiots. Also you're ugly and your mother dresses you funny.

[*] Really, what's so difficult in sacrificing 3 seconds of your life to see if what you're posting is in an existing thread (or 20) ? Oh, I see, you're opinion is more important than their's and needs a thread of it's own. That and its beneath you to check. OK. My apologies then.

Tags: brownshirts, communism, healthcare, hysteria, insanity, obama, rabies, reform, socialism, stupidity, More…uhc

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Well, except for that bit about conception in the penultimate sentence. A better threshold might be "awareness".
Its unfortunate that our government spends money like there is no tomorrow. As if there is an endless supply. My concern is what the consequences of this wild spending will be. How will the national government reverse the trend? Or does it really matter that we're in debt? Can they just keep pumping money into the economy? Is there a breaking point? When will the value of the American dollar disappear? Are they going to tax us into oblivion? You don't need to be an economist to see that there is something wrong with this picture. I have no problem with a UHC plan but our government needs to get its act together. Operating in a deficit should be illegal and politicians should be held accountable. This might actually result in responsible and sensible management of our money. Maybe I'm crazy but I actually do believe that it's possible for the government to manage money responsibly and keep taxation within reason and provide the tax payers with programs that we really need. It's time for some serious government reform.
I agree that LOTS of government spending is "wild" or at least "irresponsible".

But keeping 18,000 tax paying US citizens from dying preventable deaths, and millions more from suffering needlessly?

Our country - our fellow citizens - are guilty of medical neglect of 46 million of our own. Not illegal aliens, not "welfare queens" (because some of us have Medicaid, at least for our kids if not ourselves), just regular people that you know or like or talk to on the internet. Even when I was making good money, it's not like I covered my nanny's insurance, and I didn't get it through my employer either.

This is a freaking ETHICAL issue people.
Wow. You're asking me to comment on all this. Well if I must. Firstly I don't feel the Bush/Gore election was rigged. But I do believe in dissolving the electoral college. It's a waste of tax payer money. No I don't believe corporations should dictate energy policy. I felt the evidence for WMD's was weak. It was a tool for Bush to convince a public we needed to go into Iraq. The Iraq invasion was unnecessary. Iraq was not an international threat. Hussein was only a threat to his own people and the Kuwaitis. I'm not a fan of Big Brother Government but on the other hand I feel since I'm not doing anything illegal I have nothing to hide. I was actually concerned about terrorism. 9/11 was very upsetting to me. Yes I'm very upset about the money we spent on the war. I believe in torturing terrorists if that's what we have to do to protect our freedom. I'm very, very upset that we didn't capture Bin Laden. I hate terrorists. I feel our soldiers should get the best medical care available for life. There should be no question. Yes I was upset about the Katrina response. Yes I'm very upset about the trillion dollar deficit. Yes I'm very upset about the way government spends insane amounts of money on everything. I'm even upset that they did business with Halliburton at all. It was a huge conflict of interest. No I don't like to see Americans die. I agree that health care should be apart of our infrastructure. Oh and yes I'm pro-choice in early term pregnancy. I think I covered it.
"I believe in torturing terrorists if that's what we have to do to protect our freedom."

But of course, torture doesn't work...
My hatred for religious radicals that like to kill people is visceral. I'm still angry about 9/11. The CIA and the military know better than I do how to handle these people. Whether it works or not I'm not against it. Sorry. Just the way I feel. Caveman thing I guess.
Then your position is actually "I believe in torture as revenge for particularly heinous acts." I can't say I en-tirely disagree. I think chemical castration should absolute be minimum sentencing for child sexual assault convictions. But it's considered "cruel and unusual" and therefore something Americans don't do. Oh, unless you're dark skinned with a "funny" name and the slightest chance you're actually connected to terrorists. Then America does cruel and unusual all day long.

It's not the rule of law, and it makes America less safe, and American military members at greater risk of being tortured themselves if captured.
Well, there is a difference between current expenses and investments. It's reasonable for government to issue bonds to fund capital improvements like buildings and roads, because they have a useful life longer than the bonds that pay for them. But yes, it's stupid to deficit spend for stuff that gets used up right away like payroll. That's unsustainable. Though in a crisis, debt can be used to pump up the economy. The problem is that Reagan and Bush got the country used to low taxes and high spending for non-crisis periods. Then when a crisis came along, well, damn.

I see no practical or theoretical reason why universal health care can't be a pay-as-you-go system. It should be. With the whole working population paying into it, rather than being allowed to opt out because they're young and healthy and wanna buy a boat instead, it should actually be cheaper per covered person than it is now.
"There is no way the government can learn all there is to know about health care in as short of time as they've been talking about it. "

The gov'mint knows fuck all about ANYTHING.That's why they hire EXPERTS.In the case of health systems,theres' an entire discipline called HEALTH ECONOMICS.

Your post reveals a strong opinion unencumbered by either rational thought or knowledge of the topic.

From wiki:

Health economics is a branch of economics concerned with issues related to scarcity in the allocation of health and health care. For example, it is now clear that medical debt is the principle cause of bankruptcy in the United States.[1] In broad terms, health economists study the functioning of the health care system and the private and social causes of health-affecting behaviors such as smoking.

A seminal 1963 article by Kenneth Arrow, often credited with giving rise to the health economics as a discipline, drew conceptual distinctions between health and other goals.[2] Factors that distinguish health economics from other areas include extensive government intervention, intractable uncertainty in several dimensions, asymmetric information, and externalities.[3] Governments tend to regulate the health care industry heavily and also tend to be the largest payer within the market. Uncertainty is intrinsic to health, both in patient outcomes and financial concerns. The knowledge gap that exists between a physician and a patient creates a situation of distinct advantage for the physician, which is called asymmetric information. Externalities arise frequently when considering health and health care, notably in the context of infectious disease. For example, making an effort to avoid catching a cold, or practicing safer sex, affects people other than the decision maker.

PS my own limited knowledge on the subject comes from one-on-one discussions with a friend who teaches health Economics at Cambridge University.
Uh huh. And those all might be valid points.

But three years ago I got a bacterial infection and I had no insurance and no money at all really. So I waited. And waited. And, what do you know, I had flesh-eating bacteria and nearly died! I had an infant son at that point. So, his mom could've died before he was three months old because I can't afford health insurance, even though I've worked legal W-2 jobs since I was 14 at MacDonalds, and babysitting etc. since I was 7.

It's not: Can we afford this?
It's: Why are we fucking okay with six times as many people dying every year because they don't have fucking health care as died on 9/11? Six times as many - over 18,000 of your fellow citizens (many of whom work, pay taxes, or are children) - as died when the twin towers went down. Why aren't people outraged that my son and I have to rely on the Remote Area Medical services designed for third-world countries?
I'm not yet to the point that I can "only conclude" that, although it is one of my conclusions. Maybe it's my way of rebelling from a nihilistic death cult, but I have to have faith that people aren't as evil as I was told they were. After all, I'm only gonna be alive so long and these are the other people on the planet so...

But on the specific issue of "haves" sure, some are just being dicks. Have you seen yet? It's the perfect response.
Yeah, I don't think most of the "haves" think it thru that far. I think a more likely explanation is that they didn't have such a tough time making their way in life, so they just can't imagine anybody drawing a blank in the life lottery. It's easier to think that poor people just aren't trying hard enough than to really see the obstacles that life presents to so many.


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