There's way too many threads scattered all over this site [*] - this is for all of them. This is a pretty neat and universal retort to all of the lunatics that consider healthcare reform tantamount to a communist takeover. I've reproduced the whole thing instead of the usual minimal snippet, because it deserves it, and you can just copy and paste it for any cretins that choose to pollute your mailbox -

Freepers, Birthers, Morons of all stripe, You didn't get mad...

You didn't get mad when the Supreme Court stopped a legal recount and appointed a President.

You didn't get mad when Cheney allowed Energy company officials to dictate energy policy.

You didn't get mad when a covert CIA operative got outed.

You didn't get mad when the Patriot Act got passed.

You didn't get mad when we illegally invaded a country that posed no threat to us.

You didn't get mad when we spent over 600 billion(and counting) on said illegal war.

You didn't get mad when over 10 billion dollars just disappeared in Iraq.

You didn't get mad when you saw the Abu Grahib photos.

You didn't get mad when you found out we were torturing people.

You didn't get mad when the government was illegally wiretapping Americans.

You didn't get mad when we didn't catch Bin Laden.

You didn't get mad when you saw the horrible conditions at Walter Reed.

You didn't get mad when we let a major US city drown.

You didn't get mad when the deficit hit the trillion dollar mark.

You finally got mad when.. when... wait for it... when the government decided that people in America deserved the right to see a doctor if they are sick. Yes, illegal wars, lies, corruption, torture, stealing your tax dollars to make the rich richer, are all ok with you but helping other Americans... well fuck that. That about right? You know it is.

You people have all lost your fucking minds. You are selfish, greedy, obnoxious, narcissistic, and frankly... stupid. Your pathetic little misspelled protest signs are embarrassing. Maybe you ought to find the smart person in your midst and let them make up all the signs, cause man, you look like a bunch of idiots. Also you're ugly and your mother dresses you funny.


[*] Really, what's so difficult in sacrificing 3 seconds of your life to see if what you're posting is in an existing thread (or 20) ? Oh, I see, you're opinion is more important than their's and needs a thread of it's own. That and its beneath you to check. OK. My apologies then.

Tags: brownshirts, communism, healthcare, hysteria, insanity, obama, rabies, reform, socialism, stupidity, More…uhc

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bravo, but what's a freeper?
Interesting, but why google while I got this lovely community?
I heard of truthers, birthers, deathers, teabaggers, shouters, and the like, but I guess freeper is pretty much a.....fitting word for all of them. :3
I have my own problems with an NHI program, but I have an even bigger problem with the amount of lies around the proposed program -- they're not even good lies for fuck's sake.
{Standing ovation}

Although I'm afraid most of those points are far too intellectual for the Deathers mind to wrap around. And the list is missing perhaps the most important one of all:

You didn't get mad when government got between Terri Schaivo's family, doctors, and her end-of-life needs.

Hypocrisy boils my blood. The extreme, blatant, in-your-face, I'm-a-hypocrite-and-proud-of-it of the last couple of years drives me insane.

- You say government should have no say in health decisions, yet you're anti-choice and will urge your congressman to save Terri Schaivo.

- You denounce government health care as evil and socialist, "But keep your hands off my medicare."

- You declare anything remotely 'socialist' as evil. Yet when your house catches fire, will you burden the taxpayers by calling the fire department? When you get mugged, will you waste taxpayer dollars filing a police report? When your computer breaks down and you need to send an email, will you go to your socialist, tax-funded public library? Did you or your kids go to public school? Who plows the snow off your roads; DOT or do you and your neighbors do it yourselves?

- When you hit senior age, will you rip up your social security checks and send them back to Washington with a big old "FU?" Because only then will I take you halfway seriously when you bitch about anything 'socialist.'
You say government should have no say in health decisions, yet you're anti-choice and will urge your congressman to save Terri Schaivo.

- You denounce government health care as evil and socialist, "But keep your hands off my medicare."

- You declare anything remotely 'socialist' as evil. Yet when your house catches fire, will you burden the taxpayers by calling the fire department? When you get mugged, will you waste taxpayer dollars filing a police report? When your computer breaks down and you need to send an email, will you go to your socialist, tax-funded public library? Did you or your kids go to public school? Who plows the snow off your roads; DOT or do you and your neighbors do it yourselves?

- When you hit senior age, will you rip up your social security checks and send them back to Washington with a big old "FU?" Because only then will I take you halfway seriously when you bitch about anything 'socialist.'


Just because it bears repeating.
If Fox News doesn't tell them to get mad, they don't.
You made me bite on this.

Maybe I'm an idiot but I'm anti-government sponsored health care for a variety of reasons, and yes I did get mad when most of your above list happened.

Name one program that has cost less then estimated. The wars in the middle east, medicare, veterans care, social security, the post office, etc, are all in the red, and were never supposed to cost as much as they do. In some cases, the cost has been a order of magnitude higher then predicted. Why is it going to be different now? So a trillion dollar plan could cost trillions of dollars more. I think a lot of people also mistake government spent money as different from the taxes they pay. They are interlinked. If we get more benefits we will have to pay more money. You can't milk corporate america for a few trillion dollars and expect nothing bad will happen. Prices will go up or jobs will be lost...or both.

Even in the short time Obama has been in office they have lost hundreds of billions of dollars, to which no one can account for. I'm sure you've all heard about the cash for clunkers program, and how to keep it going we tripled the cost. I'm not sure how everyone else feels, but the success of the program in the private sector would have driven the buyback amount down (supply and demand). Instead we gave way higher then retail price for those vehicles. If we dropped the value from 4500 to 2500, we would have got many more cars off the road for the same cost to us, which to me means a more successful program.

Now, I am pro health reform. The average cost for health care in this country per person is $8000. That is pretty ridiculous, but there is no question we have the best of the best in health care and health care innovation. But if nothing changes the average american is looking at $8000 in extra taxes. Yes, some of that comes from businesses, but businesses are just extensions of workers, if the business gets taxed more, there will be consequences. And no company is going to pay extra money to the government for a sponsored plan and keep paying the normal amount to the private insurance they have now.

I'd love to have everyone in the US insured, but you can't just wave a magic wand and reinvent health care. There are currently 13,000 private insurance companies in the US. Yes 13,000. There is no way the government can learn all there is to know about health care in as short of time as they've been talking about it. The press keeps talking about a 1000 page bill. What?! that's it??, it should be 100,000 pages if it's really going to be able to do the job. I don't want them to reinvent the wheel, just give it some better bearings.
There is no way the government can learn all there is to know about health care in as short of time as they've been talking about it.

Actually, universal healthcare has been discussed in the US since the late 1800s.
The first proposal for an American NHI program was by Teddy Roosevelt.

And in any case it's not like they're going into uncharted waters here. Every other developed country in the world has an NHI program that exists along with Private Insurers usually in cooperation. There are plenty of models to look at.
Judd, I can respect a reasoned debate over the issue - thanks. I think the people Felch are addressing here are the noise makers who will buy into every right-wing conspiracy theory without blinking an eye when their side is proven to have done so much worse.

That said, I agree with you that Washington rarely underestimates the cost of a project. As much as I embrace the current bill, my own fears are A) cost and B) the lack of magic wand you mentioned. The kind of changes the bill proposes look great on paper but are pretty huge and there's a large segment of this country that fears change of any kind. For those who don't fear change, it is rarely a smooth transition.

If this bill passes with no more watering down and with a public option - critical if this bill is to be worth the paper its written on - here's what I, total armchair observer with no more of a PoliSci degree than the next guy, predict will happen:

- In the very short term, it will indeed be more expensive than projected. We're going to borrow money we don't want to borrow and even raise taxes on this or that group that we didn't want to. In the very, very short term, FAUX News will have a field day with the birthing pains of Health Care Reform as an epic fail. E.g.; How only 200 days into office, the trillion dollar bag of flaming dogshit left on Obama's doorstep is now all his fault.

- In the less-short term, perhaps a year, the numbers will start to emerge that as the number of uninsured drops dramatically, so do the number of disability claims, unemployment claims, Cash Assistance/Welfare, the number of unpaid ER bills and even ER attendance as more people are getting preventative care. Money saved there can be money re-funneled into health care.

- More importantly, over the next 2 years, we will see all of the horrifying boogyman things the Right promises will happen, not happen.

Incidentally, as to the government having to learn how to run a health program, they already do: VA and Medicare. At the state level, every state has its own poor-people's health insurance. Problem is just how ridiculously poor you have to be to be on it.
If it's going to be the best, it is necessarily going to be expensive. France has the undisputed best system in the world. That's not just Michael Moore bullshit, that's sheer numbers.

But, they pay quite a bit for it, roughly 20% of all employees income goes into paying for NHI and an additional 5.5% of all unearned income also goes into NHI.

If one goes to a Public Hospital, NHI will cover about 75% of the cost. Private Insurances that one can buy into will often cover an additional 12-13%, the remainder paid by the recipient.

Specialists in Public Hospitals are allowed to charge an additional fee for their services.

There ARE waiting lines for Public Hospitals in the large cities as is to be expected given the population density, but that problem disappears the further out you are from the large cities.

If for whatever reason one does not want to go to a Public Hospital, there are Private Hospitals and Private Doctors who are cash only and where care is more immediate. Private Hospitals are cash only, payment is expected upfront, no accommodation is made for either NHI or private insurance. The quality of care between the two is not measurably different, only timeliness.

The French manage to do this while still having a lower cost per capita spent on health care for several reasons. One is that they have far less non-medical staff per bed. They often treat basic maladies in the home instead of wasting time, money, and space in a hospital or a clinic, risking cross infection from the aggregation of sick people in one area. There is a heavy emphasis placed on preventative care and recuperation to prevent the spread of infection among coworkers and the public, and to prevent sick or injured individuals from more problems; both of which add more cost.

I don't know about you. But when all is said and done I STILL plan to retire in France. Their strong sense of social solidarity is one that I love and that I never expect to find in America or anywhere else. (Not that the lack of it is necessarily bad, but I prefer having it.) They seem to be more sensible than the rest (see Nuclear Power) and have a kind of lifestyle I would prefer to have.

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