By Dr. Denny M.

So many times we hear about this and it’s all flawed and messed up. Follow what I’m saying and you will see that none of it was ever possible. It cannot and will not ever happen.
Ecclesiastes 3: 10-20 and also 9:5 make it clear that humans are the same as the animals and we are all of one breath. When we die we know nothing. Death is it. Christian apologists want to step in saying something about the soul, but Ecclesiastes never acknowledged that we had a soul. We live and we die.
Saul of Tarsus (Paul the Apostle) had many experiences that he claimed to be devine, but he could not determine if he was “in or out of the body.” This is soul and spirit talk but Ecclesiastes does not allow this.
In my lifetime I have heard of a bodily resurrection in which all the graves are going to be opened and we are caught up to meet Jesus in the air. Lies are going to be made up to explain all these opened graves, etc. when that great day comes. Modern Christians now think that your body isn’t going. It’s only your spirit that will be “raptured” (parousia – great joy) meaning great joy at his appearing. Jesus will come in the sky in the last days to “catch you up to heaven” so you will be “saved” from the bad things going on here on earth. If he did so, you would be the more favored Christian since it did not happen in the past. Why favorites now? Oh, it’s that mean old anti-christ. Sorry. There is no logic here.
Paul told of this event in 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18 and said we should comfort one another with these words. Christ was coming in the air, apparently bringing the dead spirits with him, and he would reunite them with their bodies before the living were also caught up to be with him. Why does a spirit need to be reunited with a body? Paul forgot that we don’t have spirits anyway. All that was his idea.
This time around will they get the LBGT stuff straight and not make mistakes?

Are the spirits being reuntied with the bodies so they can all go back to heaven? If Christ had the spirits why are the bodies needed in the first place? Is the senario here Christ taking you to heaven or Christ coming to earth for a thousand year reign? Maybe you would need your body if you were going to be with him then. What is this spirit and body bullshit? Why is Ecclesiates 9:5 so plain and the modern christian apologists do not see this? Why are we to comfort one another with words of Christ's return when he brings back spirits to put inside of ressurected dead bodies?

Any thoughts and replies are welcome.

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Ecclesiates says we are all of one breath, humans and the animals and that when we die we are dead! Imagine that! How did the christians let that book sneak into the bible?

My now deceased mother used to tell me "I know it says that in Ecclesiastes 9:5 but it isn't true." Strange that they would find a way of working around it, but they did. Later it was said that this passage was not speaking "spiritually." If that's what spirituality is then you can literally make anything into whatever you want it to be!

Well, considering Jesus couldn't get it right the first time, what assurance is there that his "second" coming will succeed? I think that's why Christians fixated on this "Second Coming" and "Rapture" garbage, because they couldn't accept the facts. And remember that Augustine famously defined Christianity as (I may be getting the Latin wrong here) Credo Et Absurdum (most likely misspelled as well, lol) or "I believe because it is absurd"---therefore you have to believe it because you can't make any sense of it. Oh yeah, that's really a smart way to settle doubt, huh? So basically it's all nonsense anyway. Christians refuse to think about their religion and even fear thinking will send them to Hell. After all, Thomas had a legitimate beef because he wasn't there when Jesus supposedly walked through the wall after his "resurrection", but because he'd doubted he was humiliated and made to feel he'd sinned. And doubt IS a sin in Christianity, so of course no good Christian wants THAT on his conscience. They just talk themselves into pretzels, basically. It will never make sense. Pathetic.

LOL  Yep, pretty absurd. Notice that in 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18 Jesus is coming in the air and has the "spirits" with him, apparently so he can put them back into the bodies as they ressurect from the grave. I've always thought that this meant he was carrying a "soul bag" with him and would throw the souls out at the bodies as they rise. Sort of like throwing a pancake to make sure everyone gets one. But what about the LBGT thing? If some people were in the wrong body the first time, what's going to happen now? What if Charley and Bobby's souls get put inside the wrong bodies? Why would souls need a body anyway, and couldn't they just make new bodies? Would Charley actually become Bobby? This entire "soul and body thing" was started all over again by Paul when he was "instructed" or "called up to heaven." Paul never could tell if he was in or out of his body. If this was the kind of certainty that the man had, why would you trust his judgement on anything?

Once believing all this great big crock, I've come now in modern times to liken it to Star Trek. I refer to the "rapture" (which could never happen) as "beam me up, Scotty."

The last five words in your first paragraph is the perfect diagnoses for Christians who believe these convoluted, contradictory, supernatural adult fairy tales  "There is no logic here". 

Maybe a disclaimer like:  ABANDON ALL LOGIC HE WHO READS THIS BOOK

Ok I admit It, I sort of borrowed my disclaimer idea form Dante's Divine Comedy but I still like it.

The tale of how the 66 plus books got all bound together as one book should be enough to drive most people away if they ever studied it. (Most did not.) How "holy" got on the title of something with murder and mayhem is another matter. Throw in the ideas that everything inside this "book" is devine truth and that none of it is contradictory, and I would say that Constantine pulled off a good one around 323 AD. Why don't we just call the book "Constantine's Big Lie?" He literally created modern christiandom here, and none of these books were ever meant to be bound together as one.

Thank you Denny for discussing Ecclesiastes. That's my favorite book of the bible for philosophy.

I think you have discussed how the bible is a compilation of works from many authors, over hundreds of years, with many agendas and edited by subsequent generations. From that, as from a library, I think we can chose parts if they resonate with us. Some parts of Ecclesiastes do resonate with me. And to others, to the point of cliche. I think it's one of the founding works of Existentialism, which spans religions, cultures, theisms and atheisms.

http://atheism.about.com/od/existentialism/a/introduction_4.htm

3 What do people gain from all their labors
at which they toil under the sun?
4 Generations come and generations go,
but the earth remains forever.
5 The sun rises and the sun sets,
and hurries back to where it rises.
6 The wind blows to the south
and turns to the north;
round and round it goes,
ever returning on its course.
7 All streams flow into the sea,
yet the sea is never full.
To the place the streams come from,
there they return again.
8 All things are wearisome,
more than one can say.
The eye never has enough of seeing,
nor the ear its fill of hearing.
9 What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun.
10 Is there anything of which one can say,
“Look! This is something new”?
It was here already, long ago;
it was here before our time.
11 No one remembers the former generations,
and even those yet to come
will not be remembered
by those who follow them.

I have struggled with this lament. Other discussions on Nexus touch the theme of life's meaning.

Later, the author advises,
11 I have seen something else under the sun:

The race is not to the swift
or the battle to the strong,
nor does food come to the wise
or wealth to the brilliant
or favor to the learned;
but time and chance happen to them all.

12 Moreover, no one knows when their hour will come:

As fish are caught in a cruel net,
or birds are taken in a snare,
so people are trapped by evil times
that fall unexpectedly upon them.

Ecclesiastes has multiple mention of god. I think "fate" or "random chance" could often be substituted - does not seem necessary to have a god, to have those experiences and thoughts.

Sorry for the diversion, my random association brain at work there. The author of apocalyptic visions had other things in mind. I wonder if they had some rye infested with ergot, resulting in LSD-like visions? Or just psychotic? Revelations seems like an entirely different work, and stands on its own as supremely bizarre.

 

Sorry about the long series of empty replies.  I deleted them.  Cat walked across computer keyboard while I was in bathroom.

LOL   At least you explained it and we now know it was the cat. I was hoping that it didn't mean real trouble.

Fortunately it was the cat and not a seizure.

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