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The Q Document
I need some help from the biblical scholars and ancient historians out there.
Found this obscure and very interesting link by accident -
http://wapedia.mobi/en/Cynic?t=5.
This references a mythical Q Document that has never been found (all very Da Vinci Code-ish).
This is all new to me. I was aware of the historical links with Stoicism (they're Cynics who've abandoned fun) and early christianity, but never direct linkage of traditional Cynicism to, of all historical figures, the J Man himself.
If this is indeed correct, then the bible is an even more screwed up misrepresentation of the times than we already accept. It raises the possibility that Jesus, if he existed, was executed for criticising authority and was a political, not divine, martyr. In fact it would be reason in itself for the bible to be deliberately censored, manipulated and totally reconstructed. Traditional Cynics reject all authority, both secular and theistic. And people think David Irving is a screwed up revisionist.
The whole thesis is - Hellenistic culture was far more predominant in the region than originally thought, and had a far greater impact on Jewish thought than previously thought. It may in fact have been the dominant cultural meme.
This is what they are contesting. They claim he was a political radical and a cynical, authority abusing loudmouth, not religious in any way. As an example, trashing the temple full of merchants was not for desecration of the house of god, just a blatant "screw you" to authority in general.
Reading about the Q Document makes my head hurt. Can anybody enlighten me in simple English ?
Why is this of interest to me ? I embraced traditional cynicism a long time ago - without knowing it, I have lived most of my life using a parallel philosophy (with the exception that I prefer hedonism to asceticism). Discovering Cynicism for me was akin to a non-believer discovering an atheist community for the first time. I no longer felt alone.
http://atheistnexus.ning.com/group/cynics
Found this obscure and very interesting link by accident -
http://wapedia.mobi/en/Cynic?t=5.
This references a mythical Q Document that has never been found (all very Da Vinci Code-ish).
This is all new to me. I was aware of the historical links with Stoicism (they're Cynics who've abandoned fun) and early christianity, but never direct linkage of traditional Cynicism to, of all historical figures, the J Man himself.
If this is indeed correct, then the bible is an even more screwed up misrepresentation of the times than we already accept. It raises the possibility that Jesus, if he existed, was executed for criticising authority and was a political, not divine, martyr. In fact it would be reason in itself for the bible to be deliberately censored, manipulated and totally reconstructed. Traditional Cynics reject all authority, both secular and theistic. And people think David Irving is a screwed up revisionist.
The whole thesis is - Hellenistic culture was far more predominant in the region than originally thought, and had a far greater impact on Jewish thought than previously thought. It may in fact have been the dominant cultural meme.
This is what they are contesting. They claim he was a political radical and a cynical, authority abusing loudmouth, not religious in any way. As an example, trashing the temple full of merchants was not for desecration of the house of god, just a blatant "screw you" to authority in general.
Reading about the Q Document makes my head hurt. Can anybody enlighten me in simple English ?
Why is this of interest to me ? I embraced traditional cynicism a long time ago - without knowing it, I have lived most of my life using a parallel philosophy (with the exception that I prefer hedonism to asceticism). Discovering Cynicism for me was akin to a non-believer discovering an atheist community for the first time. I no longer felt alone.
http://atheistnexus.ning.com/group/cynics
Tags: bible, christianity, cynics, jesus, q document, revisionism, stoics, synoptic gospels
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Robert Tobin on -
Saul Of Tarsus.
Now the interesting thing about that entity aka. St. Paul is that after his 'vision' on the road to Damascus he is supposed to have met Simon/Peter and James who lead the Jewish followers of Jesus (Judeo/Christians). Saul/Paul disagreed with circumcision which was a requiment for a convert to Christianist under the Peter/James faction that kept closely to Jewish Law. So Sau/Paul started up on his own and the result that the Peter/James faction died out and the Sau/Paul Faction survived until Constantine I at the Nicene Council got at it and made it the official religion of the Roman Empire combining the then Christian beliefs with the Pagan beliefs of the Romans. Jesus seemed to been a conglomeration of himself, Horus, and Mithra. The similarities between Isis and Horus, and Mary and Jesus are striking. 25th December was the festival of the Mithraic Sol Invictus, thus becoming Christmas Day.
How can anyone take Christianity seriously?
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Permalink Reply by Tarquin St John Sh'gn'sty on -
"The similarities between Isis and Horus, and Mary and Jesus are striking. "
Not from my reading of Egyptian mythology.Although I've often come across that claim, I think the similarities are rather vague and perhaps mildly coincidental as myths often tend to be.
Correlations may imply,but do not in themselves infer causation. The similarities are hardly "striking". However I'd be be pleased to learn why you think that is the case and the inferences you have concluded..:
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Permalink Reply by Robert Tobin on
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Tarquin. Two big reasons: Check this web site:
http://home.austarnet.com.au/calum/egypt.html
I have a lot of respect for the author, Calum. Last time I was in contact with him he was at a University in Nth Qld. involved in archaeology.
Next is the history of Emperor Constantine and the Council of Niicea. I have read and am still reading everything I can about that. I also have to read Eusebius's History of Constantine. a big read. It seems that the Roman Catholic Church was really founded by Constantine as the official religion of the Roman Empire and he directed that the beliefs of this religion should incorporate myths from other religions: Egyptian, Babylonian and Mithraism. Jesus was then depected as a combination of characters from these religions. As far as the Isis and Horus connection with Jesus is concerned you would be familar with the statuette of Isis nursing baby Horus and the Filippo Lippi
painting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madonna_(art).
I am not claiming I am right, Unlike the Pope I am not infallible, but if you think about it, the connection is plausable.
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Permalink Reply by Rosemary LYNDALL WEMM on -
The Q document is an assumed document full of Quotes (hence the Q) of Jesus and/or other wise people of around that time. It is assumed to be the source material for the gospels.
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Permalink Reply by Gargoyle65 on -
Actually Robert was correct in the first reply to this post. Yes, Q is a series of quotes, but it comes from the German word quelle, for pen. :-)
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Permalink Reply by Rosemary LYNDALL WEMM on
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Ha. Nit Picking :-) But you are correct. It comes from the German and the word did not actually mean "quotes". But it's a neat way of remembering it, don't you think?
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Permalink Reply by Gargoyle65 on
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sorry I hate to be nitted myself ;-) yes, it is easier to remember that way. quelle, pen... why can't germans speak english?? (a good friend of mine is german and I pick on him all the time about his better command of english than mine! good solid public edu-ma-cation workin' for me)
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Permalink Reply by Tarquin St John Sh'gn'sty on
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"why can't germans speak english? "
Funny you should mention that--English is actually derived from a medieval German dialect,with bits Latin, Norse and of course French due to the Norman conquest.
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Permalink Reply by Rosemary LYNDALL WEMM on
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I have heard that they are especially good at speaking English while drunk :-) It's a pity my German doesn't undergo the same transformation in such circumstances.
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Permalink Reply by Gargoyle65 on
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finally people that get my 'jokes'!!
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Permalink Reply by Robert Tobin on
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I had one of Dr. Barbara Thiering's books and studied it carefully. Dr. Thiering is an excellent historian and archaeologist. She went to the site of Qumran and examined it closely. However I am very skeptical about her conclusions. It is hard to give my reasons because I dont take the bible seriously, so where does one start. If we accept the descriptions of Jesus life there are similarities between those of a man living in the area where Nazareth is supposed to have been in those days (Archaeologists doubt it existed in those times) and the Essene community. However there are not enough similarities to claim Jesus was an Essene.
Another thing that clouds the issue is where Jesus was born. Bethelem is the accepted place according to the Bible, but that is 70 miles from Nazareth(?). Just think about this: would any man make his wife travel that distance when 8 months pregnant? But I still dont accept Qumran as the place of Jesus' birth.
I have just downloaded a couple of articles about the Qumran-Essene Theory and have to read them.
I shall return.
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Permalink Reply by Robert Tobin on
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Very intriguing. Have you followed this link:
http://www.bethlehem-of-galilee.org/index.htm
There is the question about the Roman census. However there is some confusion and even doubt about the occurence of that census.
I think the Vatican knows the whole truth, that being that there was no "god" and ALL the bible OT and NT is fiction. The Church knows the truth about how the Roman Catholic Church was set up by Constantine at the Council of Nicea. He was no more Christian that I am a Vulcan. The whole thing was a political plot. What is really in the secret archives in the Vatican Library? What is the Vatican hiding? Like all lies, the further one takes them the harder it is to admit they are lies.
THE PLOT THICKENS
Here is another link for the Q document and the Council of Nicea.
http://www.thetruejesus.org/rome/q_doc.htm
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