this is why i am an atheist. long ago a friend died, and i had to try figure out why. i was still a mild believer. my grandma had repeatedly fed me the mantra, god is love. so why wud a just, benevolent god, who is love, create this world, filled as it is with evil? thats my question.

nother query. how many of you were turned to atheism by this?

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I agree with you that Israel doesn't always act in its own best interests, let alone the interest of the Palestinians. But what I was taking issue with was your statement that you disparage Israel as a nation, which means that you dislike (not sure of your usage of the word disparage) all the people in the Israeli nation, which is a totally different thing from disliking what the government is doing.

I also feel that the Palestinian Authority and Hamas often don't do what is in the best interest of their people, but that doesn't stop me from respecting the rights of Palestinians as individuals, and admiring the good people that are among them.

ok let me clarify. i disparage and disagree with most of the recent actions of the government of israel. i  realiize that a little under half of the people of israel agreed with me during the last election. however, i did not say i disparaged any of the people of israel.  i do not. they are all individuals. as individuals, their actions are caused by various influences.disliking a nation is different from disliking the people who live there.

im fully aware that many governments act as you say not in their best interests, including my own, and i disparage it too. ha ha ha i just realized im not sure what disparage means anyway.

Carl, You may not know what desparage means, but how do you distinguish between the people and their country? You probably mean the government when you say 'country'. Am I right?

i said government

Carl, for you, does disliking a nation differ from disliking a nation's actions or policies? Do you enjoy spreading ambiguity?

Disparage? Think diss, or dis.

ok i dis amurka, the usa, my countree tis of thee, under gawd. i dis it for stupidity, for blatant killing of its own citizens, for killing people of other nations, and for disregarding its own laws.

is that ok? is that ambiguous?

i dunno bout you guys but i often hearpeople say they dont lkike america. these people are my friends, they like me, im an american. so i can figgur our that they by hitting on my nation arent hitting on me.

tom, was i writing a book a=or a disertation? i thot i wasa talking with friends. in addition, ive often heard this statement, "the Al quiada crashed airplanes into the WTC",  ive never heard anyone say some people in the al quaida crashed airplanes.

now you got me wondering if israel will be the next "N" word.

what does israel have to do with your murdered relatives? if you are referring to the holocaust, that ended in '45.

Carl, your reply is insensitive. You have seen in these discussions here at AN that athiests who had been Christians are still crying about Christianity's ancient evils. The memories of the holocaust are still fresh, close relatives of people living today have been killed in a most insensitive manner. Even a distant person like me shudders after seeing a picture of the Auschwitz gas chamber. Have you seen it Carl? See  it and read the description of humanities most shameful acts. The people that were killed in crusades were at lest killed by a sword, the tortures of inquisitions were nothing compared with the tortures of Hitlers concentration camps. Any person who has some knowledge of the most shameful human attrocities could not write what you have written, Carl.

 

"Carl, your reply is insensitive."

Madhukar, it's more accurate to say insensitivity does not reside in words, but readers' sensitivities result in their reactions to words.

I tell you that for two reasons.

1. I was once an xian and here you are saying that I'm still crying.

2. You appear to have little or no experience with what is required of professionals (doctors, lawyers, scholars and more) when they have to deal with horrid circumstances.

The Holocaust was indeed horrid. Had the judges at the Nuremberg trials allowed their emotional responses to shape their judgements, revenge would have been taken but we, the world, would not now have the International Criminal Court. (That America's leaders refuse to accept the ICC's jurisdiction shames most Americans.)

I once told a police officer acquaintance that I would have difficulty approaching a car I'd stopped, not knowing if the driver would turn on me with a question ("Why did you stop me?") or with a gun.

He told me I should not be a police officer.

His words were not insensitive. Knowing they were true, I reacted with calm.

 Tom Sarbeck

Madhukar, it's more accurate to say insensitivity does not reside in words, but readers' sensitivities result in their reactions to words.

Tom, you know what you are saying? What you say means no one ever uses insensitive words or language but it is only the reader that interpretes a language or words as insensitive.

What I said about Christians was not personal. It is true that atheists here have been lamenting a great deal about the past and therefore I had posted some discussion as well as replies to some threads to this effect. You must have seen most of them.

i have knowledge. crap man, even natalie dissed israel. did you read her post? the post that got that insensitive reply readr as if israel killed her relatives. of course that is silly. i dint coment on it.

i dont recall reading atheists crying over christianitys ancient evils, what are you refferring to?

mebe im insensitive, but im honest. if sensutrivity requires dishonesty im gonna be insensitive.

masdhukar, you bring up method of dying. i guess to you the gas chamber is the worst possible way to die. i dont know. but i do know that those were all, in the crusades, in the inquisition, in the holocaust , at wounded knee, at blasck lynchings, when the british killed indians, when my own country kills iraqis and afgans, at 9/11, all the dead were individual human beings.  all were atrocities. i agree with you tho the holocaust was terrible. there is no excuse for it. im not trying to wxcuse it at all.

all i said was, israel had nothing to do with the holocaust. it didn't kill any one in gas chambers that im aware of. of course the holocaust was probably the cause of the state of israel, but not the other wat around.

Carl, If I was wrong, I stand corrrected.

Are you being sarcastic, or genuine? Of COURSE born-agains support Israel for their OWN religious reasons -- and one of Israel's primary sources of income is Jesus-based Biblical tourism. There are many Jews who find their "friendship" repugnant, especially because one of their agendas is to convert Jews to Christianity so that the end of days can come.

I should think it's pretty clear by now, that, while I don't believe in any kind of god who is stirring up our world with his finger to see what will happen, I remain ethnically and culturally Jewish, and I have a GOOD knowledge of Jewish history and culture and beliefs. I was actually taught as a child that god was without form, without limit and unknowable -- and that's pretty typical of modern Jews (a pet peeve of mine is how often Christians and others confuse modern Judaism with Biblical Judaism -- they AIN'T the same by a long shot). So it wasn't much of a step toward agnosticism (haven't gone all the way to atheism, as I can't be CERTAIN that I know that there's nothing unexplainable out there).

So my perceptions of Israel are colored by the Holocaust, which is burned into my heart in a way that you can't appreciate, except that I tell you I can't think of the Holocaust without thinking that instead of my aunts and uncles and cousins, it could have been ME. So I, like most Jews, feel that we MUST have a haven, because if it could happen in Germany, the country of the enlightenment, it could happen anywhere (and has, to other people, in places like Cambodia and Rwanda). The Holocaust was only the culmination of 1500 years of violent Christian persecution, with many of the same kinds of laws as Hitler adopted, such as forcing Jews to wear yellow, so that they could be easily recognized, charging them outlandish taxes, forcing them to live in ghettos (from the Italian "borghetto" - little town -- and you thought that was a black invention!) rioting and looting their businesses on occasion, murdering them, particularly on Easter Sunday, because their priests said the Jews killed Jesus, making most occupations illegal for them, so they had NO CHOICE but to be money lenders (too dirty an occupation for a Christian), etc.

All this is not to say that I don't understand Palestinian issues, which are real, and my dream is to see a Palestinian state alongside Israel, economically united in that each side DOES have something to offer the other, and allowing the Palestinians to have the Islamist state that they so clearly desire, which NECESSITATES a Jewish state for Israel. American-style democracy and "salad bowl" demographics are impossible in the Middle East. You probably don't know that Jews were persecuted in Arab countries, too, although they deny it, just as they deny the unmistakeable, archaelogically proven Jewish roots in the land. In Yemen, a Jew was not allowed to ride a camel, because that would put his head higher than a Muslim's -- a matter of status. If the Jews had been living happily in Muslim lands, they wouldn't have come POURING into Israel just as soon as they were able to, right after the War of Independence. So all I want for my people is to have the right to live freely in their own culture, just as most peoples (but not all!) in the world do. Arabs have that right, across a BROAD swath of land, but want to deny it to the TINY parcel of land that makes up Israel.

I'm NOT saying that Israel should be annexing land by constructing settlements in the West Bank -- I think that is entirely counterproductive, and there is MUCH about the Israeli government that I disagree with, especially that religious zealots have WAY too much power in a parliamentary system -- the majority of Israelis, although they celebrate holidays much like Americans do, are pretty non-religious. But I draw the line at the destruction of Israel.

Probably more than you wanted to know, and I think I'll start a new thread about it. :-)

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