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Permalink Reply by Aurelian Radu on August 14, 2009 at 2:32pm

I read Bart D. Ehrman's Jesus Interrupted and I tend to believe that Jesus did exist and that he was a minor apocalyptic prophet, like John the Baptist, and that he believed the Son of Man, not himself, will come to judge people and establish the kingdom of God on Earth, not in Heaven. He was completely Jewish in his beliefs and later was transformed by Paul and other Christian writers into what he is today for Christians.

No ancient historian wrote about Jesus because he was one among thousands of Jewish prophets in a backwater province called Judea. But if you read the Gospels carefully you will see that their beliefs were not founded on pure fiction, but on some sort of a conspiracy theory based on historically insignificant events.

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Permalink Reply by Louis on September 8, 2009 at 4:31pm

I haven't found anything source of the letter from a neutral source so I have to withhold judgment as to it's authenticity and historicity.

One thing sticks at me, however, "we must agree truly this is the Son of God!" If we must agree I would have expected that line and evidence of that to appear everywhere and anywhere in all Roman documents ever found by anyone in any place ever. This is a bit like Lazarus rising from the dead and then no one bothering to ask him or leaving no record of what being dead was like -- it's just too odd for serious consideration.

As far as I'm concerned it's a bit like that quote attributed to Winston Churchill, "Anyone who isn't a Liberal before the age of 30 has no heart .... and anyone who is still a Liberal after the age of 30 has no brain," all distinctions between American and European 'Liberal' and all distinctions between the British 'Liberal' and 'Conservative' parties aside, this would be a really potent quote -- if Churchill ever actually said it or any analog of it. We're talking about this century and we've already lost track of who actually said what. How much easier is it to make up shit about what Pontius Pilate may or may not have said?

When there is no other evidence to lend support, one should not take it into consideration with regards to other things.

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Permalink Reply by Louis Davout on September 8, 2009 at 11:58pm

"As far as I'm concerned it's a bit like that quote attributed to Winston Churchill, "Anyone who isn't a Liberal before the age of 30 has no heart .... and anyone who is still a Liberal after the age of 30 has no brain,""

Who did say it? Do you know?

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Permalink Reply by Louis on September 11, 2009 at 2:22am

To be honest, the quote itself holds so little meaning to me that regardless of who said it or the original analog thereof, it wouldn't change or shake my world view or my opinions on Liberalism or Conservatism, English Parliamentary or otherwise.

That is to say, I don't really care; the words and their intent can't stand on their own merit.

Something like, 'don't be a jerk' or 'don't eat razor blades' make sense regardless of who says it, it doesn't need to come from a Jesus, the person who said it first doesn't need to be worshiped for 'don't be a jerk' to be a reasonable way to carry out your life.

Something like, 'sell all your belongings and follow me,' is a bit much. When the reason is 'because my father is God and my mother is a virgin and I will rise after I die,' makes the request even more odd.

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Permalink Reply by Louis Davout on September 11, 2009 at 7:34pm

Well I just like to refer to it because apparently I'm a heartless moron :)

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Permalink Reply by Rusty Gunn. on September 23, 2009 at 5:08pm

It was Charlemaign.

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Permalink Reply by Louis Davout on September 23, 2009 at 9:29pm

Charlemagne the King of the Franks? "Convert to Christianity or die" Charlemagne?

discussed liberals and conservatives? I find that very unlikely.

Or Charles Louis de Secondat, Baron de Montesquieu?

Or someone else?

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Permalink Reply by OutlawGirl on September 8, 2009 at 5:20pm

I think it's better to debate his divinity than his existance. I mean, if he was really who the Bible claims he was, there ought to have been a LOT more sources that mentioned the resserection, right?

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Permalink Reply by Louis on September 8, 2009 at 11:38pm

I've recently begun to consider the gospels to just be bad fan fiction on an even less than Harry Potter type story.

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Permalink Reply by Jim C. on September 9, 2009 at 12:22am

But debating his existence makes debating his divinity a moot point. It's the base that their whole house of cards is built upon. Pull that card and the rest comes tumbling down. They're not even left with, "Well, even if you don't believe he was a saviour, he was still a prophet and gave a wonderful message."

If the most fundamental "fact" of their belief system can be demonstrated to be false, the rest just disappears in a puff of logic.

So it's all worth debating but getting right to the heart of the matter saves a lot of time and grief. But even if you could show a full census record for the Middle East during the period from 20 BC to 50 AD that had Roman seals all over it, they'd come up with cockamamie reason that there's no mention of Jesus Christ (or Messiah Yeshua, if you will).

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Permalink Reply by Louis Davout on September 9, 2009 at 12:24am

"But debating his existence makes debating his divinity a moot point. It's the base that their whole house of cards is built upon. Pull that card and the rest comes tumbling down."

I agree.

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Permalink Reply by Louis on September 9, 2009 at 1:09am

Agreed. If he can't even be proven to have lived, he can't be proven to have risen and so the whole of Christianity evaporates thereafter. His having risen is fundamental to the faith.

Without that all that's left is a general message of 'don't be an asshole' which is something that can stand entirely on its own without need of space dad or zombie Jew propping it up.

Discounting Jesus, the magic and miracles and prayers become myth and we can stop doing stupid things like faith healing and asking Jesus-genie to grant us wishes.

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