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The arrogance of being right

I sometime read religious boards and it amazes and disappoints me how much religious zealots and atheist have in common – the absolute and righteous certainty that they at the exclusion of others possess knowledge/revelations that makes them the bearers of the truth.

Recently on a different Atheist discussion board a lady that had just lost her young daughter wrote about her religious experience and of the comfort she receivers from her faith. She politely shared her heart breaking story and even offered words of kindness. The replies were predictably brutal and mocking, barely a shred of compassion for a mother that lost her child. I made my best to present my atheist point of view to this lady but I did so with respect, compassion and understanding. I also felt ashamed for my fellow atheists.

I see it here too at nexus, the same hubris and arrogance that at times is such that some individuals proclaim that their philosophies are “my own religion” while others are themselves “…my own religion” and their church is “my flesh and blood”. Does this sound strangely familiar? I suppose soon we will have Gods among us.

Before we all get too heady from over indulging in the advantages of having the weight of evidence in our favor, we should remember that pointing out the irrationality of religion is as-easy-as- shooting-fish-in-a-barrel! The real challenge is offering something better.

We are no better than those that dismiss us and demean us for being atheist if we dismiss and demean them for being believers. The belittling of others only diminishes us and at the very least makes us as misguided as we see theists to be.

It would serve us all well to remember that before presenting our carefully constructed arguments we could show something very simple – respect – and maybe even modesty.

If you believe that logic and reason offers superior guidance than mysticism and religion then BE the example.

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Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Dale on July 6, 2010 at 4:51pm

I understand what you are talking about. Yes, in my opinion people should not be that rude. I think you are correct. In general, no, no reason to be rude here in Nexus. Still, some people might use language in a way other people think is rude. But, I don't think anyone would intentionally use rude language. As I said with curse words, some people think swearing is bad, some use it for daily conversation.

I agree very much with what Miquel has said. My post was with the statement about Free Speech.

Should those people have been so rude to that lady? I don't think so. I think they were being jerks. Did they have the right to be? I guess so. We don't have the right to not be offended. I am not defending what they did, but it was their choice to do it. And on the topic they were discussing it would hurt the reputation of atheists. They were jerks, and many other words I don't like to use.

Miquel is right to be upset about such a disgusting assault on a person. And Fred, I am happy that you also feel the same way. I made no comment saying that what they did was correct, I hope I never do. But, they have the right to do it.

Permalink Reply by funk Q on July 6, 2010 at 5:00pm

Fred

I don't care about rudeness, that's the individual's responsibility. Every atheist is their own censor, judge and monitor. They have to accept the consequenses of what they do or say. If they choose to be rude or polite it's a freedom they should have.

What I oppose is others trying to impose a set of guidelines or rules or whatever on others. That's what religions do! If you want to force your values on others go join a church or a political party otherwise, if you want to speak freely and act freely allow, the same courtesy to others and don't arrogantly expect people to adhere to your views just because they give you comfort.

If you get offended why don't you find out why? What makes you think you have better values, morals, ethics or dress sense than any other person? To carry on that the opinions of another cause offence is the ulimate in selfishness, pride and arrogance. To try to control or influence the behaviour of another is domineering and manipulative!

Permalink Reply by Dale on July 6, 2010 at 5:24pm

Very direct, but can't argue against it.

Permalink Reply by funk Q on July 6, 2010 at 5:46pm

Thanks, I'm not a great advocate of rudeness but I think freedom of expression trumps etiquette.

Permalink Reply by LeeLah on July 6, 2010 at 6:08pm

There are times when I become a bit annoyed because I live in a place where religion is basically untouchable and revered above everything else, so I become jaded and hard hearted. But I do keep my mouth shut for the most part and I am respectful of the beliefs of those around me and most of those around me hold fast to the religions they were raised in.

We, as atheists, should believe as we believe as individuals and when it is time to come together we can be a group but a group of people with compassion for our fellows. We do not have to bash or demean others in their beliefs. The one and only time I become incensed is when religion interferes with reality and starts to influence public policy and education most importantly science education.

However, there is a fine line. To say nothing can be misconstrued as a message of support for a particular belief system. Yes, I agree that should someone be grieving for a lost loved one that is not the time to get on the soap box. But we cannot be completely silent either and we have to realize that there are going to be those of us who are not able to be diplomatic and will say some pretty insensitive things.

It is always good to remind ourselves that we are facing a giant when it comes to dealing with religion. It has been around a very long time and it is not going to go away soon. There are those among us who are in love with their religion so much so that they will kill themselves and others for it and that is something I am not willing to do for my beliefs.

We do not have to shout it out to be right about something, sometimes you just have to sit back and let people figure it out on their own. This site demonstrates this point, all one needs to do is read the stories of most of us who have come to the conclusion that there is a more rational way of thinking about the nature of our existence.

Permalink Reply by Rob van Senten on July 7, 2010 at 5:25am

They want to shove it down our throats.

Only if you're a minor....

Permalink Reply by Loren Miller on July 7, 2010 at 5:33am

Only if you're a minor....

I'd say ESPECIALLY if you're a minor ... but adults aren't exempt. I've dealt with the door-to-door JW's myself (politely but firmly) and will likely have to do so again - they don't quit easily.

Permalink Reply by Rob van Senten on July 7, 2010 at 11:13am

It was more of a pun in regards to priests, shoving in throats and minors, I guess it didn't work so well.

Jehova's Witnesses ... don't quit easily.

It is indeed difficult to make it absolutely clear to them that they need not try. From my experience it's best to make a statement regarding the absurdity of accepting the Bible as literal and inerrant, preferably in a mocking and derogatory manner.

When two JWs came to my house I asked how much it would cost me to buy their daughter and if they wanted me to get some stones to bludgeon to death a gay resident. Then I said that I was not interested, that I already had Bible study from JWs and that it had only affirmed that which I already knew.

I said goodbye and closed the door, I don't think they'll come back.

I used arrogance and rudeness deliberately because I am convinced that it's the only way in which to truly get rid of them. I tried being polite in the past, I even went so far as to take weekly Bible classes from them and had many a discussion.

If there is anything that I've learned from experience, it's that being arrogant is a way too close off a discussion completely, I haven't seen it been useful within a respectful discussion. Arrogance implies superiority and you can only discuss from an equal position.

Ignorance however, is something so ridiculous that when confronted with it, one is tempted to resort to arrogance to be simply rid of the blabbering nonsense by ending the discussion. To claim the (deliberate) ignorance of the opposing party in a discussion is considered to be arrogant even if it seems completely justified to do so.

I once listened to a (radio)debate between PZ Myers and some schmuck who displayed such ignorance that I would have been an arrogant prick during half of the debate. Might not be useful for society as a whole but I would have felt a lot better because of it.

Arrogance has some good and bad uses, I'd like to keep it in my arsenal to be used for comical effect or emergencies of utter ignorance.

Permalink Reply by Dale on July 9, 2010 at 1:05am

It is very similar to some of the strategies I have heard of for dealing with telemarketers.
1. Keep them talking for x amount of time.
2. Sell them sometime
3. Propose marriage (bonus points if they accept)
4. Get their personal phone number

Permalink Reply by Dale on July 6, 2010 at 9:08pm

Thank you Fred for your story. I don't know what I would have done in the situation. 5 years ago I would have just quietly participated. Now... I don't know.

Permalink Reply by Loren Miller on July 6, 2010 at 10:05pm

Anyone who attempts to forcibly push a lit candle into my hand will discover how fast they can lose the function in their fingers if not their wrist, presuming they wish to push the issue.

Religionists too often presume that they can get away with this manner of behavior as a matter of course. Fred's situation is an unfortunate and somewhat extreme example of this, and the real tragedy is that that priest could not see past his own biases and recognize that there was another point of view in play.

Permalink Reply by Loren Miller on July 7, 2010 at 3:01pm

I completely concur. Heinlein said that sometimes you have to step on their toes until THEY apologize. Under these circumstances, I see that quote as being wholly appropriate.