The arrogance of being right

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Miguel on July 7, 2010 at 9:47pm

A final thought

The replies to my original comment can be succinctly summed as either of three types:
1. They do it too
2. They did if first
3. I don’t care

These are the arguments made by an obstinate child - not the arguments made by adults whose self-proclaimed reasoning and logic make them superior to theists.

Granted few individuals actually replied to my post and as it often happens with calls for civility, it is the truculent minority that responds most vigorously. I wonder where were the older and wiser atheists?

This episode helps to strengthen my belief that there is no moral imperative to knowledge. “To know the good is to do the good” is an absurdly naïve idea – sorry Socrates and Kant.

Without a guiding ethic, reason and logic become nothing more than another means of self-aggrandizement and of diminishing others no different from even the most irrational ideologies.

An ecologist I once worked with said it best “knowledge is like money, it can be put to good use, wasted away, or used for destructive means.” Sadly, he was referring to fellow ecologists whose work on endangered species become nothing more than a tool for professional advancement rather than an earnest desire to save species from extinction. Friends in medical research have the same experience. Lives are lost in the name of carrier advancement.

My point here is to emphasize the importance of a guiding ethic and what I tried to do with my post was to begin a dialogue about the simplest of values of any ethic – respect and empathy.

It’s sad that it failed so measurably.

Permalink Reply by Dale on July 7, 2010 at 10:15pm

Though I respect your intentions, I feel rather insulted that you can compile all of the discussion replies into the three categories that you have declared. As I have seen a wide range of replies that branch in many ways. True, many folks are a bit jaded. Alas, I think it might be the older, wiser ones who are more jaded than myself. I think a lot of people who go out and face the world do so feeling isolated and as a minority group. Especially in some of the larger centers. I remember one high school I went to, we shared a bus, half going to the public school and the other half going to a Christian school. Still, even the majority of those going to the public school were still Christian. It just saved the public school system money by sharing the bus. Alas, my brother being the only outspoken atheist at the time has always enjoyed debating the merits of religion.

One day he was talking to a girl and I guess the conversation got a little too heated. I don't know exactly what transpired during the conversation however the girl ended up in tears. I guess he pushed her a bit too far. Was he in the wrong? I don't know. I know he would cause trouble if he ended up in a country with blasphemy laws. I can be thankful Canada only has hate speech laws.

But, a lot of people do feel persecuted. I can only imagine in the United States were you have a president who makes declarations that atheists should not be treated as citizens. Even if the number of atheists are growing, they are still concentrated and isolated in pockets of rationality. Which seem to be on the outer boarders. Maybe it is the increased contact with other countries that helps, who knows. But, I can understand that the longer who are trying to be vocal, the more jaded and deterred you will be from being civil. I am not about to condone being insensitive and outright vicious, physically or with speech. But, understanding is important in creating a dialogue.

So, don't give up. Try and try again. I look forward to your wisdom.

Permalink Reply by Dale on July 8, 2010 at 10:45am

It was Bush senior who was quoted that one. I don't know of any official declarations by Bush Jr. However, I would not be surprised. Either way, there were enough Christian's who declared that Bush Jr. was made president by God so they could have their "holy" war. I am honestly thankful to be living in Canada knowing that information about my lovely neighbor. But yes, the current American President, Obama, has a much different view and I am happy he is declaring outright that America was not founded as, nor currently is, a Christian country. Back to the good old days that way.

Permalink Reply by funk Q on July 8, 2010 at 11:26pm

So, you didn't really want people to debate about arrogance, you only wanted opinions which backed up an opinion you had already decided was certain, unmutable and inerrant.

The responses may be not what you wanted but they are real, whereas ethics are imaginary.

Permalink Reply by Miguel on July 9, 2010 at 10:15pm

"pompous ass" my oh my Phil, I didn't know I was about to tangle with such masters of rhetoric. Every time most people reply to must post you only help to make my point all the more clear and I presume that is exactly why you make the comments that you do. Can't wait to read more from such a brilliant mind.

Permalink Reply by Miguel on July 9, 2010 at 11:28pm

Most people think of me as a polite person, but none that know me mistake me for a rug.

Still, I'm glad that you are beginning to see my point. You know you have learned something when you can teach the teacher.

Permalink Reply by Miguel on July 9, 2010 at 11:18pm

Phil, I'm still waiting to hear your arguments, what are they? Tell me what is your argument for the effectiveness of being rude and condescending. So far no one as actually made any tangible arguments. Go ahead and deconstruct my argument.

Taking refuge among those that agree with you is not an argument. An ass braying by itself or in a chorus still sounds like an ass.

Permalink Reply by Miguel on July 10, 2010 at 12:33am

At last a real argument – thank you!

You site Madalyn Murray as an example of the effectiveness of being rude. There is no question that she was rude alright. Her guile did ultimately lead to the end of prayer in schools, which is great. The hard working lawyers that brilliantly argued for the separation of church and state before the Supreme Court deserve some credit no?

BUT, if I recall correctly many of the people involved in that case thought of Madalyn as more of a liability than an asset. In fact some said that she became a setback for the cause of separation of church and state.

She didn’t just become “the most hated woman in America” as Time or Life mag. put it because of the end of school prayer, she was not a very nice person to anyone. In fact she was so rude that she eventually became completely isolated from everyone in her life except her son, a meek man that did as he was told.

So it could be argued that she could have accomplished a lot more if she wasn’t so disagreeable.

The little that I recall of Margaret Sanger, she, as with other women like her, was called rude because she didn’t know her place as a woman. In the early 1900’s women didn’t speak up, she not only spoke up but she spoke up about birth control which was considered immoral and was illegal.

Let’s not mistakes guile and courage with the boisterousness of rudeness.

Oh yes, you wanted examples of polite people who made a difference, Gandhi comes to mind, he wasn’t even rude when being beaten. MLK believed very strongly in a personal ethic of values like empathy, civility, etc. Even Malcolm X before his death came around to seeing things more like MLK than the young Malcolm.

Many of the great Greek philosophers and writers of the enlightenment period also believed very strongly in a civil society ruled by reason.

I don’t think they would have strong been proponents of advancement through ridicule and mockery – I think that was what they had to contend with.

Permalink Reply by Miguel on July 10, 2010 at 1:11pm

The only sad aspect of atheism is the failure of reason and logic to persuade atheists that they should strive to better human beings.

“score here is John D 2, Miguel 0”

I didn’t see this as a game but I’m glad that your team has won yet another victory in the fantasy land where your superiority exists.

“what has anyone like this done for ATHEISTS? Nothing!”

Anyone that improves the human condition does so for theists and atheists alike.

It is true that leaders of social movements only become perceived as moderate only when compared to more radical movements. This was true of MLK and Malcolm X. However, you confuse the courage of taking a radical position with the artlessness of behaving like a yokel.

On a more personal note: I was initially enthused by your initial post, the issue of Malcolm X vs. MLK’s approach – I thought, would be a way to have a constructive discussion about what I think is at the heart of the matter – the vehement defense of one’s views in the face of an hostile majority AND the ways this can be done.

Too bad you could not resist the emotional gratification of personal insults.

Permalink Reply by Loren Miller on July 7, 2010 at 10:06pm

Miguel, I speak from direct experience here. On at least three occasions, I've dealt with religious proselytizers who came to my door. In two cases, they were dismissed with a comment no more loaded than "I think I'll pass." The third I have related to you and the incident is recorded in my blog.

For the large portion, I have no problem in being civil. That presumes that the other side of the equation is willing to be equally civil and respect my point of view. If they wish to get crass or comport themselves after a superior attitude, I have no problem ripping them and their arguments from stem to stern with no apology offered. I've said this repeatedly and I will repeat: I do not start fights; I FINISH THEM. Religionists who wish to paint themselves in some self-justified, sanctimonious color will find me adding new shades to their palates.

I will NOT be disrespected, nor will I shrink back and purvey some meek, tidy, self-effacing attitude so that atheism as a whole is perceived in a "safe" light. If they want to play politely, I'm glad to be polite. If they want to play hardball, I'll be glad to teach them the game, and I won't be gentle about it.

It's worth keeping in mind that most religionists have no respect for us as it is. I know I surprised that quartet of JW's who arrived in my driveway a couple months back when I received them with a smile and without rancor. As I said in my post, I have little to gain by being combative, as I wish to stay here a while and wish to remain on good terms with my neighbors. HOWEVER ... I will NOT compromise myself for their sake, and if they wish to play dirty, they'll discover to their sorrow my intimate understanding of such a game.

Boil it down, it's THEIR choice.

Permalink Reply by Jim DePaulo on July 8, 2010 at 3:07pm

I agree. Civility is much easier on the digestion and general health than hostility and I always seek that path. However, when they persist with their proselytizing and won't accept a polite dismissal then I become somebody they want to get away from.
I have often been accused of arrogance not because I was being lofty and dismissive but because I was right and could prove it. What I find offensive is ignorant arrogance.
My son in laws father, a good friend of mine, now deceased, was a minister. We never had harsh words and we knew what each other's opinion was and discuss them at length - we were friends because we were civil.

Permalink Reply by D R Hosie on July 9, 2010 at 2:11am

Somehow I'm reminded of something my ol' man always liked to say,

"If she leaves you on the floor, in the middle of the song,
You can bet, by gawd, that you rubbed 'er wrong!"

I guess I've managed to rub a few people wrong myself, though it happens to everyone sooner or later - at one time or another - unless you're dead.

In all fairness to Miguel, I think we've all been witness - at one time or another - to totally inappropriate responses, in certain situations.

In fairness to the rest of us, Miguel, it's real hard to 'own' these discussions. Once they get going, they take on a life, and sometimes a direction, of their own. You want to always bring a sense of humor to the table, in order to meet the sense of humor being expressed by others.

You can't say this thread hasn't been a success - you got people talking! :)

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