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Permalink Reply by Park Bierbower on October 28, 2010 at 9:41am

my point is that they don't come here because they agree. you asked "if they hate us why do they come here in droves?" (amount is arguable) its because this country is a better opportunity for them, regardless of our interactions around the world. hell, they are better off here because we treat people here MUCH better than where they were at before. thats the point, the easy answer to the easy question

Permalink Reply by Jaume on October 28, 2010 at 9:23am

"The world does not hate us for what we stand for, they hate us for what we do."

Or maybe just "for what we are", even if it's at most a semi-unconscious gripe? I honestly think that the American Way of Life (this is true of other developed countries as well), with its emphasis on perpetual over-consumption, and its implications on the global economy, may ultimately prove more damaging to the world's future than even international fundamentalist terrorism. In that light, I'd cast my vote to "The American Way of Life is not negotiable" (Bush Sr.) as the most irresponsible and disrespectful statement ever issued by a President of the USA. We live on a finite planet with finite resources, damnit. To impoverished or underdeveloped nations, this statement may well sound like "This planet is ours" Or "You'll get your share of it only when we're satiated." Not the best way to make friends.

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Permalink Reply by Park Bierbower on October 28, 2010 at 9:44am

so true, a better (although i feel still incomplete) summation of the problem. maybe it would be " they don't hate us for what we stand for but for WHO we are" ie ignorant, bullying, gluttonous, obstinant and inconsistent

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Permalink Reply by Linda on October 28, 2010 at 10:03am

so true, a better (although i feel still incomplete) summation of the problem. maybe it would be " they don't hate us for what we stand for but for WHO we are" ie ignorant, bullying, gluttonous, obstinant and inconsistent

Maybe jealousy? And I don't blame them. It's human nature.

Permalink Reply by Jaume on October 28, 2010 at 10:31am

Except it's the responsibility of enlightened governments (esp. democratic ones) to supercede human nature when it becomes noxious. Complacency begets nothing. Except disaster.

Permalink Reply by Linda on October 28, 2010 at 9:47am

"This planet is ours" Or "You'll get your share of it only when we're satiated." Not the best way to make friends.

The underdeveloped nations would do the same thing and probably worse than we did if they had half the chance.

It's all a matter of who is the bigger dog on the block. I don't like it but it's just the way it is and always will be. And thank God America has always been a kind dog (relatively speaking).

I whole heartedly agree with all the green stuff going on - I'm all for it - I'm all for recycling - conserving - whatever it takes. I have always been consicous of this. I've always been the type of person who turns the lights off and reuses things as much as possible and a big believer in minimalist life style (for myself personally). I just gave a family member who recently graduated from high school my 20 year old car. Goody for me (sorry about the obnoxious tooting of my own horn).

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Permalink Reply by Jaume on October 28, 2010 at 10:21am

The underdeveloped nations would do the same thing and probably worse than we did if they had half the chance.

I'm sure they would. So what? I'm not absolving them just because they're the underdogs. On the other hand, "you'd do the same thing if you were in our shoes" has never been a way to make progress towards a non-conflictual world, and we need it dearly, more than ever. The fact that our planet, which was (subjectively) infinite for most of its history, has become increasingly tinier over the last century, makes the competition for resources a much greater worry than it was when Portugal and Spain competed for the riches of the New World. And mass-scale consumerism, a recent invention, compounds on that. "Bigger dog on the block" policies, as you put it, will lead us all in a wall - whoever the biggest dog is. Hopefully the present biggest dog will realize that - and accept that, e.g., its "way of life" is not necessarily non-negotiable.

Permalink Reply by Linda on October 28, 2010 at 11:03am

Reply by Jaume 19 minutes ago
Except it's the responsibility of enlightened governments (esp. democratic ones) to supercede human nature when it becomes noxious. Complacency begets nothing. Except disaster.

Jaume - Is any government on this corrupt planet really "enlightened?"

At least in America (last time I checked) we don't imprison people for their political and religious beliefs or lack thereof and what we do matters as far as trying to keep things stabilized in the Middle East because if we go down - everybody goes down. You can't really say the same thing for any other country except for the one that we get all our oil from. And BTW, we really really really need to cut that shit out (dependency on oil from another country).

Permalink Reply by Jaume on October 28, 2010 at 11:32am

Jaume - Is any government on this corrupt planet really "enlightened?"

I mean those governments who have panels of experts and analysts, intelligence services, free media, etc. to "enlighten" them. Whether the executive is deaf or blind is another story.

At least in America (last time I checked) we don't imprison people for their political and religious beliefs or lack thereof and what we do matters as far as trying to keep things stabilized in the Middle East because if we go down - everybody goes down.

Mmh? I never said otherwise. When I jumped in this discussion, my point was very specific, and it was all about giving a possible explanation to this simple question: "Why do these guys/countries hate the USA?" It was never my intent to assess the merits (or faults) of the US relative to other countries.

Permalink Reply by david perry on October 28, 2010 at 11:59am

You would all seem to discussing what Chalmers Johnson calls "Blowback"

Permalink Reply by LarryL on October 28, 2010 at 9:50am

"This planet is ours"

This is the Christian way is it not? God gave us the earth and it's bountiful resources to use and abuse at our will? Of course the "us" only refers to Christian Americans.

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Permalink Reply by Linda on October 28, 2010 at 10:37am

Bigger dog on the block" policies, as you put it, will lead us all in a wall - whoever the biggest dog is. Hopefully the present biggest dog will realize that - and accept that, e.g., its "way of life" is not necessarily non-negotiable.

Jaume - But I think America is realizing it needs to change it's way of life (might be way too late) but that's human nature (don't really do anything until it reaches crisis proportions). As far as foreign policy - I admit I am woefully ignorant and all this confusion I am experiencing is motivating me to learn about these things without just trusting what my politician tells me. I no longer trust not one single politician.

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