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I imagine a lot of people here get drunk occasionally, and sometimes use drugs. As a person who has recently given up drinking (not an alcoholic or anything, just want to give it up for several reasons), I am beginning to see Religion as a self-imposed form of delusion, but also see being drunk, buzzed, or high as the same thing. Question is, can you be a "bright" and still be a "drunk" even an occasional one ? Not that we cant fall off the wagon every once in a while, but to be an advocate for occasional drunkenness or getting high seems to be at odds with being rational. Thoughts?

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I take it though that you don't subscribe to the disease model for alcoholism.

No I don't. Firstly it's demeaning - drinkers aren't lepers. Second, it seeks to label many fully functional people as somehow defective by applying a diagnosis that is a gross generalisation. Remember blacks and thick skulls, or Jews and big noses ? Anti-alcohol crusaders seek to dehumanise all drinkers by applying the disease model. Third, there's that annoying free will thing.

I could also apply the disease model to teetotallers - they have the disease of dullness and unadventurousness and lack of creativity. Like I said, remove all the works of art by drunks and junkies and your museums, galleries, libraries and cinemas would be pretty drab.

Then as the evening goes on it's the alcohol which confuses issues like whether to drive, whether that girl means yes when she is saying no...whether man really can fly etc..

Again, you're generalising. People that act idiotically while drunk would also find plenty of ways to be asses stone cold sober. They are usually those that have aberrant behaviour patterns to begin with - and alcohol just lets the dog off the leash more easily. There are plenty of drunks out there that have never been violent, driven while drunk or allowed drunkenness to affect their relationships. They are the majority. They are also the demographic that is purposefully ignored by those that choose to push the disease model. As I mentioned elsewhere in this thread, a lot of anti-drink/drug attitudes border on moral fascism - labelling it a disease makes the justification of exterminating it so much more palatable.

All of life involves risk taking. Put it in a can. No one cares. We live, we die, get used to it. How we choose to go about it is nobody's business but our own.
You know what Felch, my feeling is that you and I bring such different life experiences to this subject that we wont find any common ground. I can't be bothered trying to explain anything to you or to point out the problems with the crap you talk.
My own life experience includes working in a hospital Drug & Alcohol treatment and research facility for 10 years.
My own life experience includes working in a hospital Drug & Alcohol treatment and research facility for 10 years.

So your experience is of, and only of, the negative. Does that not tell you something ? It's like people who become vegetarians after seeing an actual abattoir. Nothing wrong with your choices, just drop the pretense of being objective.
LL: I can't be bothered trying to explain anything to you or to point out the problems with the crap you talk.

If you haven't got anything to say, it's best to say nothing. Expressions of aloof disdain just underline several of the points I've made. Your belief in your own purity allows the illusion of moral and intellectual superiority to get to your head.
I don't drink. I've never been a drinker and one of the few times I decided to drink I took a trip to the store in my car and got a DUI (a whopping .03 over the limit... wtf...). I can draw not a single serious parallel between getting high and becoming inebriated from alcohol. And I just can't see anything irrational about me getting high. I smoked pot all the way through highschool and I was the undisputed valedictorian and I have never had a problem of any sort. I have been quite successful at pretty much anything I have ever attempted, from pulling my self out of the quagmire of weakness that is theism to running a small business. ^_^ I find nothing delusional about my partaking of the herb. We're a huge bundle of chemicals and in a way we're always high to some degree.

Also, I don't call my self a 'bright' but believe I fit the definition and whether or not I like to catch a buzz has nothing to do with that.

We must also always take into consideration that each of us reacts to a substance in an ultimately different way, and while I may feel that something enhances my life, for another individual it may have the opposite affect.
I've been trying for days to convey how I feel about herb + my intelligence/rationality (or "brightness") for this thread, and this is so spot on, I'm not bothering to type my own response anymore lol. Except for drinking, I'll drink alcohol, but its herb > alcohol for me anytime.

So I say this...ditto =)
@ Sonny
I'm with you on that. A rational person knows and respects their own limits - if not they are either dishonest, not rational or just plain stupid.
I've smoked dope for over 50 years (pretty much daily) I made it through a Masters degree and 30 years as a successful science teacher. I also drink a couple of beers a day. My only health problem is 3 degenerated disks in my back - which has nothing to do with my "bad" habits.
Dope and beer makes me feel better - if they didn't I wouldn't touch them.
I have a good friend that loves his tequila and dope (really loves them). Once every 6 months he quits drinking and smoking weed for one month. His reasoning is, if he can't do that then he's addicted and he will quit completely. He has been doing that for as long as I've known him (40+ years) - he has not yet given it all up.
Actually I never taught while stoned. I also liked my students - even the jerks. It was the administrators I had to put up with.
"Question is, can you be a "bright" and still be a "drunk" even an occasional one ? Not that we cant fall off the wagon every once in a while, but to be an advocate for occasional drunkenness or getting high seems to be at odds with being rational. Thoughts?"

I think a person can be both 'bright' and an 'occasional drunk'. We can be bright, and make not so bright decisions once in a while, aka, not a bright idea.

What keeps me in check is the this self imposed escape within legal bounds? What scares me the most is the law. I think the laws the US has against drinking, drugs, prostitution, etc. are worth following. I didn't start drinking until my 21st birthday. I haven't done a lick illegal drugs. When someone asks me why I don't try pot, or wanna do it, I simply say, "it's against the law, and I have no desire to." I also don't need it messing up any drug tests, I care very much about being looked upon as a person who has a clean record and can follow the rules.

So being on occasional drunk doesn't mean you're not bright. Not bright would be when you feel the need to drive yourself home while drunk. I tend to think going against the law is just plain not bright. Whether you agree with the laws or not, it is not a situation anyone wants to be in I think. If I ever disagree with a legal system to an extreme, I would probably leave the country.

And I suppose you can relate religion to what I just said. Religion is indeed self imposed, but legally you can only follow to the extent where you don't break any laws. Everyone is free to impose any delusion on themselves pretty much, as long as no laws are broken doing it.

But I suppose if everyone thought like me, we wouldn't have more than half of the great music that is out there :)
Hilarious thing is that I am quite the authoritarian at times, but break the law all the time. I also peddle my wares (It contractor, bleh) almost exclusively to law enforcement agencies.Teehee. :D
Lots of athiests recover and rebuild lives (almost destroyed by drug and alcohol addiction) using the 12 steps and fellowships such as AA and NA (narcotics anonymous). It is very clearly outlined that the higher power is a personal thing and that conforming to a religeous belief system is not needed. I have been clean for 22 years and admit that the language used at recovery meetings is fairly loaded with "god" and "prayer" and "gods will" and the like. I just filter or convert these ideas to fit my own belief system and acknowledge that I need help at times and that to go back to using drugs or drinking is a recipe for disaster. Free thinkers do recover in 12 step fellowships. The support offered by the tribe (if you like) is greater than the annoyance of listening to people with different beliefs but a common enemy. Just thought I'd add my bit as there is a lot of negativity in the previous string with regards to the 12 step movement. Cheers. Hey did anyone read Gary Abletts article in the Herald Scum today....Priceless.


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