Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Idaho Spud on April 29, 2012 at 11:44am

Besides being afraid of death, I've heard the possible explanation that when a person gets older, they have so much time and resources invested, that it's hard to change, even though they may see more flaws in the belief.  Also, if you're a leader in the church, it's going to be an embarrassment to admit you were wrong for so many years, and have the people that know you think you've went over to the satanic side.

Personally, I have a hard time understanding those viewpoints.  I was brainwashed so thoroughly, that it, took me about 60 years to see religion was false, but when I did, my fear of death decreased to zero.  My family are greatly disappointed in me, but I've always loved truth, and can no longer pretend I believe, no matter the cost.

Permalink Reply by Rudy V Kiist on April 29, 2012 at 12:26pm

I would think this would be a hard study to do and be objective. For example here in Canada, back in the '80s we had a 97% christian population compared to 77% in 2011. My question would be, where do they find "older people" who never had religion...ever? Stats may be different in 50 years when we have a larger population of seniors who never believed in the 1st place (right from childhood).

Permalink Reply by John Hunt on April 29, 2012 at 12:54pm

I saw this somewhere a few days ago and downloaded the report. Here are some relevant extracts.  --

The international Social Survey Program (ISSP) has asked three questions focusing on belief in God (Appendix 1).  The first covers six levels of belief which can be characterized as 1) atheists, 2) agnostics, 3) deists, 4) waivers, 5) weak believers, and 6) strong believers.  The second question asks about changes in belief in God over the life course and consists of consistent atheists, current atheists – but former believers, current believers – but former atheists, and consistent believers.  The third question is an agree/disagree item asking about belief in a personal God (i.e.  “a God who concerns himself with every human being personally”).  

Looking at change in the belief of individuals was just ONE part of the survey.  Of greater significance, I suggest, is the small but constant decline in faith in most of the countries surveyed.

Table 7 compares those shifting towards faith (“I believe in God now, but I didn’t use to.”) with those moving away from belief (“I don’t believe in God now, but I used to.”).  In 2008 there was a net gain in belief across the life course in 12 countries and a decline in 17 countries.  The gains averaged 4.1 points and the losses -­-7.0 points for an overall change of -­-2.4 points.

So the NET change in faith was actually a decrease of 2.4 percentage points.  [I haven't checked their calculations.  And, rather than manipulating percentages, it might be more meaningful to calculate the number of  (millions of) individuials who have ceased to believe over the course of their lifetime.]

Table 7 is summarised as:  "I believe in God now, but I didn’t use to" Minus "I don’t believe in God now, but I used to."

Russia (16.0), Latvia (11.9), Slovenia (8.5), Slovakia (5.6), and Israel (2.6) are the ONLY countries where the increase in faith with age exceeds one percent.

Surely these are outweighed by Netherlands (-14.0), Spain (-12.4), Australia (-12.0), France (-11.3), Great Britain (-10.1), and Norway (-11.0), even without all the other countries where the decrease is only in single figures!  (The USA has a small increase:  1.4%.)

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Why do I get constant bleeps when I'm logged into this web site?  I find it a pain to log in, as there's no link for this when I want to respond to a post:  and then audible injury is added to the insult.  Can the bleeps be switched off?

Permalink Reply by John Hunt on April 29, 2012 at 3:18pm

This report today from Scotland.  --

www.scotsman.com/scotland-on-sunday/scotland/success-the-only-hitch...

...

Since 2005, secular weddings have grown in popularity from 50 to 58 per cent of wedding ceremonies in Scotland.

Last year, one in 12 weddings were performed by HSS (Humanist Society Scotland). They are now the third most popular choice of wedding behind civil and Church of Scotland weddings, and ahead of the Catholic Church.

In 2011, HSS also conducted one in 18 funerals in Scotland, and in the past five years, demand for Humanist funerals has grown by 57 per cent. Humanist naming ceremonies have almost doubled since 2007.

The rise in the popularity of Humanist ceremonies reflects a significant shift towards secular ceremonies in Scotland. Of the 31 Scottish council registration areas, 25 recorded more secular than religious wedding ceremonies.

...

Scotland is at present the only country in the UK, and one of only six in the world, where Humanist weddings are legal. Humanist weddings have the same legal status as civil and religious weddings as long as they are conducted by a HSS celebrant who has been authorised by the Registrar General of Scotland.

Permalink Reply by Joan Denoo on April 29, 2012 at 3:23pm

Gosh! I don't see that happening for me. The farther away I get from superstition the happier I become. Of course that could be I have no great responsibilities now that my family is grown, and I enjoy my children more than I ever have, with the grandkids and great-grandkids just frosting on the cake. I have no problem at all with the concept of something came from nothing and evolved into this incredibly magnificent planet with humans doing all they can to destroy it. 

The institutions of our culture, i.e. family, church, education, medicine, economics and politics have never seemed to be able to work together for the benefit of all the people of the world. Never have so many worked so hard for the benefit of so few.

The production of our culture opens up the world to us where we can go to conferences sitting in our comfortable chairs, and tour great museums and read books of our choosing. We can even read and talk about socialism and perform work that benefits our families and neighbors. 

No, I think religion is on the decline and the sooner the better, as far as I am concerned. We don't have to have a church to have community, we can just harvest a bunch of produce from our gardens, put them in a wheelbarrow and go around the neighborhood giving away my produce and accepting their oversupply. Thankfully, one neighbor grows zucchini, another has different kinds of tomatoes, so by the end of the day, we have fresh fruits and vegetables, refreshing conversations, and shared community chores. We all watch the kids from birth to fledging, and then watch the next generation come back for visits. We sit with one another when one of us goes through the process of dying and we celebrate their lives, even as they return to the earth. Our cats and dogs and ducks and chickens, birds, squirrels and mice continue to entertain and we all celebrate their gifts to us when they die, even as we watch the next generations of critters come into our lives. 

Religion rebound? Why? What is the point? Who cares? What does it matter? We are honest and kind and caring and helpful and generous with each other without god or some unknowable, unseeable, unhearable, untouchable delusional element. 

When I was beaten, no god answered my prayers, or church community stood between me and my abuser. Rather they gave me imperatives: submit, yield, turn the other cheek, pray, acquiesce. Sick! Sick! Sick!

When I was hungry no god or church community provided food for me and my children. 

When I was homeless no god or church community put a roof over our heads or invited us in. 

What did work for me was to run away, go to a local grocer and trade labor for food. 

The good news is shedding all the old bromides, the old traditions and customs, refusing to submit to destructive values, and opening doors of possibilities. I had no role to live down to; I had no guilt sitting on my shoulders weighting me down. I had no preacher or god-believer turning my brain into mush. 

So, what would I or anyone gain by going religious in our old age?   

Permalink Reply by John on April 29, 2012 at 6:59pm

Well said Joan!

At 60 I've never had religion as part of my life and never will.

Permalink Reply by Joan Denoo on April 29, 2012 at 11:50pm

Permalink Reply by Loren Miller on April 30, 2012 at 12:14pm

I agree with Joan.  I didn't fully come OUT as an atheist until maybe three or four years ago, and I was, for the large portion, an apatheist before that.  I find myself buoyed by the words of people like Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins, and of course, the incomparable Christopher Hitchens, who have given verbal definition to attitudes I have held in one form or another, but never thought to express as they did.  I look back on my 30-plus years as an engineer, at the rationality expressed in its means and methods and cannot help but notice that religion enjoys no such reinforcement and never will.

And I find that death is nothing to fear or be intimidated by, that the final loss of consciousness I will one day experience will be no more daunting than my nightly excursion into sleep ... except that I mean to enjoy the days that I have and can share with my wife for as long as I can.

Religion has neither purpose nor place in my life, FULL STOP.

Permalink Reply by Joan Denoo on April 30, 2012 at 5:13pm

I like those fellows, too. They clearly state their positions and rationale. They don't pussy-foot around or try to sound nice; they do feed my anger, but that is a good thing for me because of decades of suppression. I won't be angry for ever. Hopefully I will become wiser. 

Being an engineer may offer a concept or scaffold upon which to build a concept of no-evidence-of-god. Learning a little about physics, geology, and the scientific methods, observation, and testing, made more sense than the confusing, contradictory, hypocritical evidence I experienced from teachings and practices of religion. 

Also, understanding life is energy and energy changes, especially with organic life, it is easy to see death as a process; the only time and place we have is now. So if I want to be happy, or healthy, or love, or be loved, or wise, or whatever, I have to do it now.  

One other reason I feel less of a need for religion in my life and suspect a growing proportion of the population perceives less need is that religious values underlay the harm done to women,  GLBT, people of color, other races, creeds, and cultures. Being defined as "other", historically, profoundly impacts people' lives. Emotional wounds, although unseen, matter. 

A spiritual nature exists, as when looking at a newborn, or grieving the loss of a loved one, or knowing grinding poverty exists side by side with extreme wealth, but these are not religious, they are more a sense of wonder. Is there a word for that? "Full of wonder", perhaps? or "wonderful". No, there is a better word for the feeling one gets when filled with awe or grief. 

Permalink Reply by Joan Denoo on April 30, 2012 at 5:30pm

Permalink Reply by Dan Chehebar on September 3, 2012 at 8:39am

Wow. Struck by how much beauty there can be in even the most destructive natural phenomena, and how much capacity for ugliness and offensiveness there can be in the creations of humanity. Sorry, I know not on topic but hard to resist

Permalink Reply by Joan Denoo on September 3, 2012 at 3:13pm

Dan, right on topic as far as I am concerned. Natural processes have a kind of equality or indifference to them. A storm rips trees of poor and wealthy. Of course, it is more difficult for a poor person to recover and access to resources often are not there, but the strength, power, ingenuity, inventiveness and imagination of some poor folks can be awesome.  

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