Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Richard K. Emms on October 20, 2011 at 6:59am

If I may quote Richard Dawkins, " on a scale of seven, one being sure there is a god and seven being sure there is no god, I consider myself a six point nine".  Essentially it's a scientist's attitude.  The evidence points towards one concept, so show me evidence that I am wrong.  Never automatically reject any new evidence, however in the case of "is there a god" I seriously doubt you'll ever find any credible evidence.

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Permalink Reply by C.J. Scoggins on October 22, 2011 at 10:58am

I am a father and have two boys and when I was at the place you are now it was my own love for my children that showed me the truth. My boys are precious to me and on the issues like drugs, sex, and personal beliefs I have shared with them both my direction on those issues and at different times with each of them. If you ask my boys what Dad thinks concerning those issues they will both tell you the same thing even though I instructed them at different times and individually. Why? Because I clearly communicated it in such a way that there could be no confusion. What about God? There are over 30,000 different christian religions alone all based on the bible in large part. How is it possible that a God who is supposedly more loving and knowledgeable than I can't make it plain what is the truth concerning his expectations for those seeking him. Answer is because he's not real. My love for my boys and my existence is demonstrated by my simple and clear instruction to them, no confusion, there Dad is real! The heavenly one I believed in for years never was. Hang in there. Love ya, this shit is tough at first.

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Permalink Reply by Rich on October 22, 2011 at 11:41am

Oh hell yes.  That feeling is normal.  I spent three years being christian, then atheist, then christian, then...you get the idea.  Sometimes the flips were less than three days apart.  Let me ask you a question that helped me immensely.  Can you really believe in a god that tortures people for eternity simply for not understanding the nature of things as that very god created them?  Seems to me an omniscient being would be a better teacher.

 

I have to tell you.  When I reflect deeply on the question above, I wouldn't worship such a creature even if it did exist.

Good luck, and be rational.

Rich

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Permalink Reply by Ann N. on November 3, 2011 at 5:07pm

I actually saw a movie just like this once. It's all very foggy and I can't remember any details, but The Rapture does come and a woman is on the run with her daughter in this post-apocalytic landscape, and she does get one last chance to worship God and maybe be saved and she refuses because by that point it is clear that God is this sadistic being.

Even Carl Sagan left open the possibility that there might be a God, going by the plot of his science fiction work:"Contact."  But God won't be evil, in the miniscule chance that he does exist. That is just self-contradictory.

Also, most of my Christian friends, as they mellow with old age, have come up with work-arounds such that they manage to get me saved despite myself. ;) That is, contemporary educated Christians can't get themselves to believe this crazy "tossing random unlucky people into the lake of fire" thing either. One Christian friend recently told me, he doesn't think I'm going to hell. That "Hell" is just an idle threat a father makes to scare his children away from a cliff. My husband told me that some people were not meant to be believers: our brains are just not wired for it. And that's OK. God loves us too. Whatever! 

 

Finally we have the words of Jean-Luc Picard regarding Q, the omnipotent being who blinks in out of nowhere to judge humanity: "If we're going to be damned, let's be damned for what we really are." That is, he's just going to go about his business since there is nothing he can do about Q anyway.

 

 

 

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Permalink Reply by Greg LeGore on January 20, 2012 at 6:11am

Of course Jews don't believe in hell because there is no support for it in Judaic writings and such a concept is, as a writer whose name escapes me, completely against all notions of justice and fairness.  Instead, the term sheol refers to the grave.  And xians get the whole godly kingdom wrong too as Jewish dogma posits that there will be kingdom here on earth...not in some heaven 'up there.'

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Permalink Reply by Jimmy Hilli on November 4, 2011 at 11:38am

If the Christian god did actually exist, then I would rather be banished to hell than to live in his totalitarian theme park. But what if the Christians are wrong then? Atheists will not be wrong because the chance that god exist is almost at zero. I had that feeling once, but now it is gone. After I started to watch Dawkins and Hitchens I felt nothing, because god doesn't exist so the chance that I am wrong doesn't exist. Now if he did exist, and if he banished me to hell, he's a horrible god, as the bible describes him to be.

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Permalink Reply by Michael Merry on November 7, 2011 at 7:43pm

The nagging feeling is normal in people who learned fear of 'god' from an early age. Remarkably, Christians continue using 'Pascal's wager' (St. Thomas Aquinas) to argue that divine punishment for non-belief is of such a magnitude that it cannot be risked. No matter how implausible god may be, the penalty for non-belief is so brutal, so final, that it has compelled blind faith and obedience in millions. Pascal's wager is a known fallacy that was demolished long ago by logical analysis. The point: anyone can invent a religion that promises 'hell' for non-believers. We could end up in Norse hell (hellheim), or in the hell of the Ecuadorian headhunters, or in some other hell. So pick one and hope you get lucky. Considerations like these helped me realize that Christianity and monotheism is all nonsense. The Abrahamic religions are really about power, wielded by arrogant men, for controlling weak and feeble-minded people.

Here's a neat video that explodes Pascal's wager with eloquence and humor > http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=v9WRG4...

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Permalink Reply by Madhukar Kulkarni on November 17, 2011 at 7:21am

I became a firm atheist about 40 years ago. I never had any fears about being an atheist. I was a firm believer in science and rational thinking was my route to atheism. So, my experience is that belief in science and rational thinking are enough to give all the courage required to take the jump. Atheism isn't new, its ages old. There is nothing to fear, take the jump and be happy. A man of conviction does not remain unhappy, a doutful person will always remain so. Now you can never go back to your old faith and remain confident. No one can tell you that you should become an atheist or not. You have to come out of your dillema. Take courage, take the plunge.

Madhukar Kulkarni.

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Permalink Reply by Rhonda Boyer on November 27, 2011 at 3:21pm

Yes, it seems to be normal.  I still miss going to church once in a while, and sometimes, I still think I wish there was an afterlife.  I miss the thought of seeing my dad and others I loved again, but I can live with that.  There was never any proof that existed in the first place.  And, as for missing church, I think it was just the socialization I missed, and the show....

 

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Permalink Reply by Michael Merry on November 27, 2011 at 5:28pm

Good point. I can't prove it, but I suspect a high proportion of church goers are actually social Christians, not devout believers. In the U.S., and, to a lesser degree, Canada, the social stigma of being labeled 'godless' is something people carefully avoid. In the southern U.S., for example, atheists are as welcome as child molesters. My guess is 1/2 or more of church goers fall in the social Christian category.

As for Christian heaven, its nonsense. For anti-theists like myself, a feeling of relief comes from understanding the absurdity of monotheism; the absurdity of a malevolent deity who concerns himself with the fates and actions of humans

 

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Permalink Reply by Ava Wilson on November 27, 2011 at 4:31pm

K Avony, think about it this way (because some of us think of it this way). The question of whether 'we're wrong' (Pascal's wager, logical fallacy) is sort of silly.

 

1. You could be Christian and go to church, and the real God could be Allah and he could strike you down just as easily.

 

2. Isn't it more reasonable, when that nagging doubt hits, to reason that God would instead be humored by earnest disagreement, and that it's more important to live life as a good person than worship some invisible dad in the sky? Wouldn't he just be happy if you don't maim and rape, swindle, lie, or mistreat other people?

 

I really think that if God did exist, he'd welcome Atheists in just as quickly as religious people. And so I don't worry at all what will 'happen to me' if I'm wrong.

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Permalink Reply by Michael Merry on November 27, 2011 at 7:04pm

"Isn't it more reasonable that God would be humored by earnest disagreement, and that it's more important to live life as a good person than worship some invisible dad in the sky? Wouldn't he just be happy if you don't maim and rape, swindle, lie, or mistreat other people?"

Agree. But, we're told, that isn't how the Abrahamic skydaddy operates. Frankly I've never understood why millions believe in a god that: sanctions murder and genocide, takes sides in wars, cares what you eat and who you sleep with ..and on it goes. Like all the gods of men, the Abrahamic god has near-zero probability. Thank goodness for that. In fact the mere notion of such an entity gives anti-theists a sense of moral outrage

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