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Permalink Reply by Lynn M. on April 23, 2009 at 7:28pm

I agree with Jezzy- you don't have to know much of the bible to discredit it. And Dionysus, that was funny, "..have to pay me well to pick up that thing and so far... no check today's mail and tommorrow's not looking real good either." haha A childhood friend read me most of Revelations when I was staying overnight at her house. I was in 6th grade and I will never forget the utter terror I felt (at the time, like many brain-washed people, I believed the bible was god's word). As we lay in the dark, my friend drifting off to sleep, I was awake, tears streaming down my face in abject fear. My other major encounter with the bible was in 9th grade PUBLIC school when we read major sections of it in my honors English class as it was considered "literature." Littered my brain is what it did.

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Permalink Reply by Hank Bones on April 23, 2009 at 8:21pm

I think my original post was overly ambitious. I got into Leviticus and gave up on the old testement. I've skipped ahead to the new, but mostly just read the good friday/easter stuff. Some amazing contradictions there, especially since the resurrection is the cornerstone of christian theology. For instance:

Matthew 28: 2 women (Mary Magdalene + other Mary) go to tomb (which is sealed) at dawn. Violent earthquake, angel rolls back the stone and sits on it (outside tomb). Angel says, "Do not be afraid ... He is risen ... Go quickly and tell his disciples." Women joyously run to find them, bump into Jesus (yeah, that guy).

Mark 16: Same 2 women + Salome (whoever that is...) go to tomb at dawn. When they get there, the stone is already rolled away! They enter the tomb, where a man in white (maybe an angel, but never identified as such) is already there. Gives the same schtick, women flee from the tomb, but this time terrified. Then, somehow in verse 9, right away when Jesus arises he appears to Mary Magdalene. (Im not sure how she forgets this by the time she goes to the tomb with Mary and Salome. You'd think she could've saved them the trouble.)

Luke 24: Unspecified number of women (although this time Joanna is with them) go to tomb, which has been opened (what about the earthquake? I kinda liked that part...). The tomb is empty as the enter, but suddenly two (2!!) men in "clothes that gleamed like lightening" appear. They don't tell the women not to be afraid, but admonish them for looking for the living among the dead. Jesus is no where to be found at this point, not until some of the menfolk go to check out the tomb.

John 20: Mary Magdalene goes to the tomb. (Alone, supposedly. At least, if Jesus' mother was there, one would expect that tidbit to have made it into the story. Oh, also it is still dark. No dawn yet.) She sees the tomb already open, gets scared, runs back to find Simon Peter and a second disciple. Footrace to the tomb. They go in, look around, and understand what has happened. (-Um, what about those angellic beings from the other books? -Oh, yeah, we decided that bit just made the story too busy, so we trimmed it down a bit. -I see. Well why did you add all that mess about the footrace? -I like drama -Drama?!?!?! What about the earthquake? What about the heavenly host descending and proclaiming the Good News? -Eh, thats rubbish. I wanted a footrace. -You know John, you're a bit of a wanker.)

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Permalink Reply by Jezzy on April 23, 2009 at 9:45pm

It's highly disturbing, isn't it? I sometimes wonder what other people hear when they read the Bible that they don't see what we do. I don't really understand how things like "man is at the head of woman and god is at the head of man" translates to "men and women are a team".

My experience isn't nearly as haunting but it's thorough. As a kid I avoided church, but didn't think about it too much. I remember when I was probably around 12, I read that having lustful thoughts is as bad as having sex. I had a pretty big moral objection to this, even though in my girlish fantasies, my husband and I slept in separate twin beds. Oh, childhood.

I went to an LDS private school for about 5 years in 2nd through 7th grades, and it was in 7th grade that I first have conscious memory of rejecting my religion. It was only about last year I plunged to full-out Atheism, and I've been gathering material since-- It's almost too easy when you know that two blue whales can't fit and survive on an ark.

Your school is very crafty. It would be illegal to read the Bible, but I guess if they call it literature and not doctrine it's okay. We wrote research papers yet again in English this year, in a persuasive essay format. I did mine defending gay rights. The problem? I live in a very conservative area, like I've mentioned its Mormon-- and Mormons are famous for their prop 8 support. The larger problem was that we had to present our ideas in front of the class and have a mini debate. Our teacher is liberal (thank the stars), and she actually had to give a disclaimer at the start because there had been some issues with this subject in other classes. This girl who very nearly wrote hers with the opposing thesis to mine said "I know there's separation of church and state and everything, but it's 'Adam and Eve' not 'Adam and Evan'". It was a bit tricky to word my reply without offending. I wanted to bring up Adam's first wife, and the fact that many scholars believe he was screwing the animals, and should not be used as an example for "proper" sexuality. I wanted to bring up that the Bible condemns shellfish, and supports slave trade. But instead I told her that separation of church and state does exist, and I'm not really religious, but Adam and Eve were the only possible match to procreate blah blah etc...

My replies always end up far too long. I'm a rambler. :(

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Permalink Reply by Riaz Ahmed Shah on April 23, 2009 at 9:57pm

I remember reading genesis ,and came across a very disturbing section where Lot gets into an incestuous relationship with his two daughters.Even if the story was added to defame the Moabites and Ammonites,it was a little weird to read it in the bible.
I wonder what was happening in Sodom, if Lot was the standard of morality in those times.

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Permalink Reply by Jezzy on April 25, 2009 at 9:27pm

In the movie Hairspray, Penny's mom is sitting by the TV reading the Bible, and she reads, out loud, "Let our father drink wine, and let us lie with him", and my sister instantly knew where that was (Lot). How many Christians could watch that, know where it was, and what it was actually talking about? My experience with church involves very little legitimate study of the Holy Books.

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Permalink Reply by Kwizzy Diane Argyle on June 25, 2010 at 9:35pm

As Jezzy's sister, I want to make it perfectly clear that I knew where it was because it was so screwed up. Not a Christian.

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Permalink Reply by Jezzy on June 26, 2010 at 10:21am

I try hard to read the holy books to become an invincible force for good, it just hurts so much...

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Permalink Reply by unholyroller on April 23, 2009 at 10:52pm

I have....and I agree with you. Read the book, taken bible study courses.......the more I got into it, the more convenced I was that it is a big load of grass and hay thats done passed through the male bovine digestive system.

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Permalink Reply by Asa Watcher on April 23, 2009 at 11:57pm

Dionysus writes:

***”Why read the bible when we have Hunter Thompson, Louis F. Celine, Jack Kerouac, Ernest Hemingway, Mark Twain, F. Scott Fitzgerald, etc. They're so much more entertaining to read than any biblical text.”***

I think Dionysus might have hit on something here, but not in the way he might think.
Having read the bible (yes, the whole thing) more than once, I find that reading western literature is more rewarding because I “get” the religious references that are usually introduced as metaphor.

* Biblical names of characters are used by authors to give a coded reference into their natures.
* Oblique references to biblical events are shortcuts to understanding the metaphorical underpinnings of the meaning of events within stories.
Dionysus mentions Hemingway. My gosh, if you have’t read the bible, or are at least familiar with large portions of it, much of Hemingway’s meaning will never be accessible to you. His stories would be simple narratives of a sequence of events...like an old guy catches a big fish.
Biblical references throughout western literature provide authors with short hand allegories or metaphors used as tools to direct the reader to deeper meanings or instant allusions.
* The bible is full of iconography used by writers. To be unfamiliar with biblical references is to miss out on a lot of the meaning of much of western literature.
You don’t have to be religious to make an effort to understand western literature more deeply.
I fear that as we become more secular we will miss, or lose altogether, much of the deeper meanings of western literature.
Then, again, "all things change"

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Permalink Reply by Hank Bones on April 24, 2009 at 12:34am

I'm with you on this one Asa. Try listening to a Hold Steady song without knowing a bit of B-I-B-L-E.

"If small town cops are like swarms of flies, and blackened foil is like boils and hail / Then I'm pretty sure I've heard this one before."

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Permalink Reply by Asa Watcher on April 24, 2009 at 12:31pm

Indeed, Hank, and I didn't even touch on the vast number of subversive images artists have incorporated into their paintings that were actually commissioned by the church.
I think as things are now, to dismiss the bible is to miss out on a lot of really important understanding of western civilization and, even though we are atheists, what makes us the way we are.
"To thine own self be true" is that biblical or Shakespearian?

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Permalink Reply by Riaz Ahmed Shah on April 25, 2009 at 2:24am

Actually , i thought the incest part was kind of funny,because it was the last thing i expected when i read it .I attended a christian-affiliated school when i was a teen,and i since i was a long way from home ,i lived in the hostel attached to the school.We had a priest who stayed at the campus ,who would come every evening when we had the group prayer .Everyone took turns to read something from the bible and reflect upon its meaning.I was one of only two muslims in the entire hostel (of 40 students) so i assumed(worse of all i was a closeted atheist) i didnt have to do it.But they insisted,and i was curious as well to study the bible, after all i do agree with most of the views on how central the litretue of the bible is to modern western culture.
but i had a rebellious streak in me back then ,so when i came across the incest passage , i so desperately wanted to use that,to the horror on my friends!It was either that or the ezekiel alien visitation!
but ,finally i decided to play nice , and i gave one of my best (sadly last) sermons on the log in the eye parable from the new testament...i 'm such a sell out!
By the way ,the school was neither protestant nor catholic.It belonged to an eastern christian sect.The church of St.Thomas.

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