Points to bring up to a pastor in a discussion

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Permalink Reply by Skeptic on December 22, 2009 at 11:51am

Hey S,
I have some ideas for you. However, keep in mind, when you speak to pastors or other Christians, you don't have to explain your non-belief. It's rare that a Christian, even a pastor, would right off the bat ask you if you believe the bible is the word of god. Generally, they'll want to tell you all the reasons you should believe. If they do, ask them why they don't believe the Koran or the Book of Mormon to be the words of god. They'll never show the errors in either of those books because they've never read them. So why would they expect you to prove your non-belief in the bible? But eventually, he'll want you to explain yourself. No one can explain yourself better than you...so just tell him what you think. You don't need any zingers...you don't need to try to stump him. How you decided whether to follow the Christian god or not is completely yours to explain, if you think you need to explain it.

However, in terms of inerrancy, there are tons of zingers. Keep in mind, a pastor, assuming he has some experience studying apologetics, will likely have responses to those zingers that are not the typical "god works in mysterious ways" type of responses. For me, the 3 biggest problems I have with the bible come down to (in order of importance) the entire book of Exodus and the whole Mt. Sinai story. God's rules to his people are ridiculous and prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that these are not commandments from god. For example, the idea that he would give instructions on how to buy/own/sell slaves completely contradicts the described character of god. Next, for me, would be the resurrection accounts in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. This is the foundational story that is supposed to prove Jesus was god, and the backbone of the entire Christian faith. None of these guys were eye witnesses, and all of them give a completely different account of the resurrection. They can't even agree on who the witnesses were. If this event was a miraculous resurrection, when god inspired each of these guys to write the story down, I would have to assume that god would tell them all the same story. And finally, the entire Torah is a problem for me. Clearly not written by Moses. Study the Documentary Hypothesis. I’ve never heard of a person writing a book and being able to tell when and where he died. (Deuteronomy 34:5).

Let us know how the conversation goes!

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Permalink Reply by Rayray on December 22, 2009 at 12:42pm

According to the bible God is a jealous god who goes into violent rages. His only sin that is not forgivable is to deny his holy spirit's existence. The first 4 of the ten commandments are wasted on him being so great. Now a jealous god who wants to be praised all the time who would go into a rage and kill thousands of people who don't call him lord does not line up with a personality that wants to remain hidden and give someone a chance to question his existence. This is a wonderful contradiction in the bible to point to. I'm sure a quick Google search would return some bible verses to support these statements. Here are a couple about the unforgivable sin:

Mark 3:22-30 states,

"And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem said, 'He has Beelzebub,' and, 'By the ruler of the demons He casts out demons.' …'Assuredly, I [Jesus] say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation;' because they said, 'He has an unclean spirit'" (NKJV, emphasis added / Note: The Pharisees made the same charge in Mat 9:34.).

In Matthew 12:31-32, Jesus says to the Pharisees,

"Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come" (NKJV, emphasis added).

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Permalink Reply by Grooving on December 22, 2009 at 1:13pm

So many, many possibilities!

First, there's the whole bit about why anyone would commit his entire life to something - only to be paid back later after he dies. And yes, Christianity is all about power (as are most religions). Do you have a bridge to sell in Brooklyn?

Second, if the Bible is true, then why are the genealogies of Jesus different in the Gospels of Luke and Matthew? OK, the pastor may point out that they both lead to Joseph and not to Jesus. Still, they are inconsistent. How can the Bible be inconsistent?

Third, the creation story in Genesis in which Eve eats from the Tree of Knowledge. In this case the Lord God is pushing ignorance while Satan is encouraging inquiry and curiosity. Why would you want to be part of a religion that pushes ignorance? Seems to me that Satan was the good guy here. (Satan's role is similar to that of Prometheus - but in this case Zeus punishes Prometheus, and not mankind, for the disobedience.)

Fourth, with respect to Christianity and a little knowledge about the other religions which were contemporary with the beginning of that church, you can point out where all the other major doctrines came from. The "son of god"? Everyone was a son of some god or another - Augustus Caesar comes to mind, and all the kings and queens of Egypt, too. "Resurrection"? Very common doctrine in Egypt, and why they did all that embalming. However, I must say that given the number of mummies we have dug up, it seems that most of them haven't resurrected. "Virgin" birth? This is a ridiculous mistranslation, in which "virgin" was substituted for "young woman..."

Fifth, it's true that religions can provide a place for community (very valuable) and moral guidance (good if you agree with the morals) and spirituality (I think meditation can be a good thing) and even music (ah, yes, I like music). But these things can all be found outside of religion, too, and you will be a better person for it...

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Permalink Reply by Master Shake on December 26, 2009 at 2:31am

Thanks for the ideas. Whenever it happens I'll let you know how it goes.

-S-

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Permalink Reply by Rayray on December 29, 2009 at 6:06pm

Just remember to be kind to the pastor. In her mind, she is looking out for your best interests.

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Permalink Reply by FreeThinker on December 27, 2009 at 9:54am

Start by asking if he believes the Bible is inerrant. If he says yes, then ask if all mainstream versions of the Bible are inerrant or just specific versions. If he cites a specific version, ask him why he believes this version is inerrant while others are not. If he says Jesus Christ has revealed this to him or something similar along the lines of faith, ask why Christians who use other versions of the Bible say the same thing about their version. Also, ask why people of other faiths, like Islam, Hinduism, etc., believe they have spoken to God, but follow a different faith.

As for Bible inerrancy, ask him why books like the Shepherd of Hermas, which was once considered genuine, was left out. Ask why John 8:1 - 8:11 was added to the Gospel of John, as it was not in the early manuscripts. Oh, and point out that we don't have the original copies of any of the books.

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Permalink Reply by Rob van Senten on December 27, 2009 at 11:03am

For me, the best story in the bible is Job. I think it couldn't hurt to read it, but basically God makes a bet with the devil and to proof that he is right kills some people, cattle and such. Really a nice God to put your faith in.

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Permalink Reply by Richard Healy on December 27, 2009 at 12:01pm

Did Zombies invade Jerusalem?

Matthew 27:52-53 (King James Version)

And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Did the Earth stop rotating?

Joshua 10:12-13 (King James Version)

Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon. And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies.

Did Time flow backwards for Hezzakiah?

2 Kings 20:8-11 (New American Standard Bible)

Now Hezekiah said to Isaiah, "What will be the sign that the LORD will heal me, and that I shall go up to the house of the LORD the third day?"

Isaiah said, "This shall be the sign to you from the LORD, that the LORD will do the thing that He has spoken: shall the shadow go forward ten steps or go back ten steps?"

So Hezekiah answered, "It is easy for the shadow to decline ten steps; no, but let the shadow turn backward ten steps."

Isaiah the prophet cried to the LORD, and (B)He brought the shadow on the stairway back ten steps by which it had gone down on the stairway of Ahaz.

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Permalink Reply by Rayray on December 29, 2009 at 6:10pm

In Joshua; I guess "the people" still haven't to this day avenged themselves because the sun is still to this day!

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Permalink Reply by Richard Healy on December 27, 2009 at 12:05pm

Resources:

My friend Giford, has started a 52-week Bible study covering the OT and the NT of all the contradictions, peculiarities and weirdness of The Bible. Feel free to plunder.
Gif's 52-week Bible Study

Week 2 covers the zombies in Jerusalem problem (above)

if you are after actual contradictions I suggest consulting this handy visual guide from Sam Harris's Reason Project which not only makes the point about how flawed The Bible is, but has cross-referenceiable citations.

The Big Red Page of Bible Contradictions (you'll need Adobe, and to zoom...)

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Permalink Reply by Brian on December 29, 2009 at 2:04pm

I find the best approach for me in these situations is to listen very carefully and wait for the pastor to assert something he has no evidence for. If you've never seen the Atheist Experience TV show you should definitely check it out. What they do a lot of the time is simply allow the person to talk until they say something unjustified. Then, simply ask them why they believe that, and how can they demonstrate that it's true to you.

Remember, he is there to convince you to believe in God, not for you to convince him to be an atheist. I've found that simply holding people accountable for what they say and making them justify things that they usually just gloss over is more effective than going through all the biblical red herrings. You'd be surprised at how much a religious person can get away with spreading gross inaccuracy in a conversation and how much atheists will even be complicit in it. We have to get away from the "I have to prove his beliefs wrong" attitude. We don't have to prove their beliefs wrong. It's their job to prove them right.

So if he starts talking about archaeologists confirming the miracles in the Bible as being true, challenge him on that. Which miracles? Which archaeologists? What was the evidence? Are there any other explanations for that evidence? Often, just a small act of non-compliance like that is enough to get the preacher off-balance, because he's used to people sitting in pews and taking everything he says at face value. He's used to putting out a "factoid" to prove his point and nobody questioning it.

Biblical interpretations vary from Christian to Christian, so I don't agree with pointing out all the contradictions in the Bible because the preacher likely has heard them all before and has well-crafted answers prepared for them. So I wouldn't go into it trying to prove that the Bible is a load of crap. Listen to what he has to say, and then put HIM on the defensive. Ask him what evidence he can provide to justify what he believes. He's expecting you to immediately launch into an attack on bible contradictions, he's not expecting you to listen to what he says and ask for evidence of it.

In short, just keep asking for evidence until he goes away.

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Permalink Reply by Brian on December 29, 2009 at 9:56pm

I'd just like to add that you should check out the sources everyone is giving you as well. I didn't want to imply that doing your homework is unnecessary.

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