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I was going to set up a group for Deaf Atheists, but figured I'd probably be alone in here if I did that so I figured I'd open it to anyone who knows sign language or even interested in learning it.
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People with religious faith tend to be happier than those without?
Although I have deepest respect to Jonathan Haidt and his work, there is something that he claims I cannot quite figure out. How can something that brings guilt, terror, humiliation and fear of eternal punishment make someone feel happy? Not just happy, but happier then those without it? Haidt, being an atheist himself, doesn't explain the phenomenon, he just states this fact. The research he talks about in his book seems to be legitimate though
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/17/opinion/17kristof.html?em
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/17/opinion/17kristof.html?em
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Anette on -
Religion doesn't alway's bring about guilt, terror humiliation and fear any differently than simply living life.
The difference is that while we ALL feel guilt, terror, humiliation and fear at times, religion offers comfort and security despite these issues. It promises a "parent" who does love you, is watching out for you and you will gain an enternal paradise.
How is it not obvious that these promises make people happy?
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Permalink Reply by AnnaSero on -
Anette,
I don't know if you are atheist, but, judging from this and other posts of yours, you are obviously pro-theist. On that, you are not getting much support from me. I can understand a religious person trying to justify his or her choice, in order to validate his or her own way, but it's hard to imagine it coming from someone who is not subscribed to a faith. Atheist who approves and finds appealing mystical beliefs, worships and religious acts is hard to imagine. Saying that, I suspect you are a religious person, who came to the wrong place.
Now, religion is pretty much always about guilt, humiliation and fear. Take Christianity, for example. Christians argue that it is a religion of love, but when it comes to arguments offered to outsiders about why they should convert, the role of fear becomes quite clear. Indeed, the strong role of fear in these arguments suggests very that fear is more essential to Christianity than love. Christianity relies more on threats than gifts, both of which are supposed to come after death and thus long after any chance to find out if the promises are genuine or not.
About guilt, read Rechelle'a apology, she pretty much summarized it http://mysistersfarmhouse.com/2010/01/former-christian-apologizes-f...
And I don't really need to go about humiliation that your imaginary "parent" requires in order to "love" you.
Really, there are plenty of places we can argue with those infected by the virus of religion, Nexus is for non-theists only.
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Permalink Reply by AnnaSero on
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I was the one who started the thread and made this observation. Anette's claims are different, read them carefully. She suggests that life itself brings fear, guilt and humiliation (though I agree with the first one, with the last two I don't), and religion only offers comfort from them.
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Permalink Reply by AnnaSero on
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Religion doesn't always bring about guilt, terror humiliation and fear any differently than simply living life.
It sure does bring those differently. Humiliation and guilt in a secular life happen, but are not continuous, in religion - they are endless, inevitable, unnecessary, constant and artificial. And on top of what happens in life itself. She is not right, it's always. It's a stable part of philosophy.
And it's too bad there isn't a god, because sometimes it would be nice to know that someone is looking out for me.
And always ready to punish you if you break one of the rules? Or even think about it?
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Permalink Reply by Rayray on -
Well a truly perfect God would have truly perfect products. We would not be rule breakers, we would only have the will of what is best for the greater good and humanity. So if God (and not religion) did exist, I would be grateful.
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Permalink Reply by Tom Thompson on -
"Well a truly perfect God would have truly perfect products."
What is your reasoning for this assertion? Supposing that a being existed who could create a self-contained universe and wanted that universe to be perfect we might assume that a perfect universe would have no entropy and would last forever. We could suppose that there is no reason this being could not create a universe with entropy for some ultimate purpose if it desired to do so.
One could argue that if the Christian God accomplished what he set out to do then he succeeded in creating a system which is perfect for his needs.
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Permalink Reply by Rayray on
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My assertion is based on the God that I was reared to believe in. An omnipotent, omnipresent and benevolent God. This is the God that most Christians believe in. My assertion also comes from Jesus healing people. God (who was Jesus), when faced with his creations, did not want to see us suffer. So he helped us in every way he could.
Personally, I could reason better that a benevolent God would not want suffering. I couldn't reason that he could ever feel satisfied with his creation with mishaps in the world/universe. If you designed a car that was riddled with problems and self destructed on many occasions, would you pride yourself at building it? We do know that the story tells of a jealous and a proud God. I cannot reason that his needs could be fulfilled by a world of suffering, unless he is not benevolent. Which is a different God than the Christian one. I would be glad to go into this subject further if you want. -
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Permalink Reply by AnnaSero on
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I feel for you about the peer cruelty, majority of kids at certain age do get to become ruthless, there is evolutionary explanation for that. The good thing is that most of them eventually outgrow it. But no one needs humiliation coming from religion on top of that.
There is a Reason Project on internet started but Sam Harris that you might want to take a look at, it's a good place to start you search on philosophies of religions. It covers all main modern religions and provides quotes from the scripts.
http://www.reasonproject.org/scripture_project/
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Permalink Reply by Edward Teach on -
I am soooooo not humiliated, terrified, and guilt ridden in life as an Atheist and moral realtivist. How could I be?
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Permalink Reply by Sonny Mobley on -
Me either! If anything I am bolstered, mentally, by it. :D Prolly why I can't help but think of people who need religion as weak... I felt weak as a theist and strong as a non-theist.
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