OBAMA CARE...So this is how liberty dies, with thunderous applause.

Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. This is a statement of our most basic individual rights. Over the centuries our human rights have been abused and eroded but always one could still say (...most of the time, in this country...) one could mind their own business and be left totally alone to live their life with no interference from anyone. But with this new health care bill, soon everyone will have to pay a fee to the government, or insurance company, for being alive.

...our last tiny bit of absolute liberty will be erased.

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I'm beginning to think Ralph is a hermit and his internet connection got disconnected...has he/she ever responded?

I don't think he should bother....because YOU Jo Jerome JUST won the debate, seriously, well done. I feel like we should hear the bell of the last round of a boxing match right about now!!
Yeah, gotta hand it to Jo for that post. And JayBarti, I'm convinced that Gregory S. Paul's hypothesis is correct, and the stronger we make our social safety nets, the sooner religion will die off in the US as it has in more enlightened countries. Another reason why the atheist/libertarian combo makes no sense. The lack of robust safety nets is what keeps churches in business.
The lack of robust safety nets is what keeps churches in business.

They must know it as well, why else the completely over the top reaction against something as basic as human health.
I don't think he should bother....because YOU Jo Jerome JUST won the debate, seriously, well done. I feel like we should hear the bell of the last round of a boxing match right about now!!

*DING DING DING!!!* And the winner is ... Logic, Basic Sense of Morality and the actual definition of Life, Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness!!!

And yeah, by the time I got here I figured I was feeding a drive-by poster. But I'm damn sick and tired of a solid third of this country arguing against their own better interests because they can't be bothered to fact-check the politicians who are bald-faced lying to them, and/or because they can't stand the idea of agreeing with a president that is (check all that apply)

- Not White
- Kenyan Father
- Funny foreign name
- Middle name Hussein
- Democrat
- Not Republican
- Well-educated
- Popular
- Progressive
Add to that list:

-Part of the EVIL GUBMINT!
-the Antichrist
-a Socialist
-a Communist
-trying to bring Orwell's vision of "Big Brother" to fruition by FORCING people to accept health care whether they want it or not, dadgummit!
Complete and utter freedom is not possible. With large groups of people concentrated in small areas, rules are necessary. If a person is isolated, their freedom is also limited. Anarchy really wouldn't be freedom b/c some people will be stepped on. Mostly the rules set in place are to protect the freedoms of some, so that a more powerful person doesn't have the "freedom" to take others' freedoms away. Or at least, that's how it should be.
Complete and utter freedom is not possible. With large groups of people concentrated in small areas, rules are necessary.

Exactly. One word: Somalia.
I think the proper summation here is

Majority Rule; Minority Rights.
The conduct on this thread is deeply discouraging to me. Have we really degenerated to the point where anybody who disagrees with you is a silly, brainless knucklewalker? Ridicule is not discourse. What happened to simple disagreement?

Are we, of all people, incapable of civil discussion?

Nobody is going to come to understand the views of others through name-calling.
I can agree with you on this; however you have to admit that coming onto a largely liberal website and declaring that the government making sure that healthcare covers everyone (almost anyway) spells the death of liberty is just asking for some very animated and heated responses. As an individual who is in principle favors a single payer system, I have no problems with criticism of the recently passed legislation on its merits (or lack thereof); but we don't normally respond well to extreme uses of hyperbole here, nor should we. If one is going to insist that "Obamacare" is the death of liberty, they should at least do us the courtesy of explaining why it is they think that. Assertions are our least favorite style of argument.
I agree with Marshall, John. Ridiculous assertions and philosophical positions deserve ridicule. The preposterously silly hyperbole about US health care reform from the Republican/Teabagger/libertarian crowd is so relentlessly stupid and uninformed that it needs to be laughed out of the court of public opinion.
The conduct on this thread is deeply discouraging to me. Have we really degenerated to the point where anybody who disagrees with you is a silly, brainless knucklewalker? Ridicule is not discourse. What happened to simple disagreement?

As one such person struggling - hard - to bite my tongue on this thread, I generally agree. Which is why I at least attempted to ask solid questions and bring up solid supporting statements. But yes, given the tone of the OP, I felt a little justified in my ... heated response.

I have grown oh-so-tired over the last year of coddling the anti-health-reformers. I've only met one (and the OP here isn't that person) who even tried to argue based on the facts. But even then that person in the end is against it because he's a Republican and therefore can't be caught dead agreeing with a Democratic president, much less a black one.

Unlike some hot-button issues, Health Reform affects me directly. My life would be drastically different right now if I'd had proper access to medical care up until now. I've had to quit work and dip below the poverty line just to get proper health care so that I'm able to enjoy Life, Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness in the long term. So yes, when yet another person comes on and bastardizes that phrase, bastardizes phrases like "Liberty" and "Freedom," falls into the soundbite cesspool of the Right Wing noise machine and starts parroting them, I get pretty upset.

This is an issue I've come to take personally. This is a bill that directly and substantially affects my very life; whether or not I'll be able to catch that cancer in time, my ability to work and what jobs I can potentially take. Those spewing the soundbites based not in fact but in fantasy are, to me, like the people in the stands of the colosseum, casually giving a thumbs up or down on whether I should live or die for their political entertainment.

Some are giving that thumbs down based on nothing more than they don't want to pay that extra 10% for Botox or because their friend the insurance CEO has bought their vote so their salary doesn't go down from 10 billion to only one or two billion. The rest of the rabid crowd is giving me the thumbs down based on the aforementioned few and the paranoid, made-up rhetoric they've fed them to save that CEO's multi-billion dollar salary.

It's sickening. And yes, deserving of a little 'heated' debate in response.

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