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Native American Agnostic speaks Regarding Youtube and Atheism
This was seminal in completing a lifelong study of human influence, social justice, prejudice and belief systems. I had an epiphany at the close of my last post - this discussion is closed - click here to go to the formative website on this concept - or read the forum discussion I just posted - it has the same link.
"Leadership Syndrome - a Disease Model of Unwarranted Destructive T...
"Atheists save the world!" nice ring to it, yes?
You see, while I am an agnostic, I can understand the desire of youtube to enjoy a peaceful forum, discourage extremism and avoid being targetted by nutcases - and perhaps most of all, since it is NOT the only provider, and is quite mainstream, they do and should respect the majority opinion of the population they have grown to serve.
Unfortunate perhaps - but you see, like all forms of retribution - JREF as a figurehead for a stubborn form of belief represents the polar opposite of the more-common and no less laughable fundamentalist book-worshipping Christian.
My Hindi brothers call it karma. You see, WHY would you wish to bring cats to a dog convention? If you tell me the gentleman's motives, he will appear to me less a flagrant asshat.
And mildly I chide you, why do you object? God loves porn is a favorite phrase of mine, but not in Sunday School at a Baptist Church.
When I was young I met Mr. Burroughs at the University I attended. He was the speaker, and I the member of Student Government handing him a $4000 check for one hour of work, so he was quite open and kind to me.
Look him up - a very flagrant bisexual, beat generation, heroin... AND he shot his wife right between the eyes at a party in Mexico City playing "William Tell."
Of course, being white, and in Mexico, his only prosecutor was himself - and he walked the river... which is a way of describing a wise man's winding and difficult journey of life.
He was an Atheist, and a very strong mind. I respect him. He did not however, scream invectives or incite crowds. They hated him for his existence, not his intrusion into "their" America.
I must muse - why do many of European heritage have such a strong desire to make their truth, "THE" truth? None of my brothers and sisters of blood have ever understood that.
So - please explain if you could - and use this discussion to educate me on your own truths regarding these two questions:
First, why do you object to filtration of a "mainstream" internet channel. Others are available, so it is not censorship - it is just an obvious exercise of "appropriate vs inappropriate" and none of you can claim Atheism is mainstream. You know many would literally KILL you if they legally could - book worshippers are fanatics. Why goad them? Why are you offended you are not allowed to post pornography (to them) in an environment that is delightful to share with the children of so many people of traditional and even extreme Christian faith?
I will speak my feelings - as a Father, as a Human Being, and with the authority of many many years. I cannot imagine anyone with a mature mind defending this. I am Redbear - and you may choose whatever means to attack me - but you are a threat to all if you must incite hatred and fear to feel alive.
Atheists are not a group of sociopathic fools, are they?
Defend your view, white man. I stand ready.
Second - and I suppose part of it, all are welcome to post explanations of why so many Europeans (and others - we have one such in our midst) seem driven to use even violence to prove that their truth is the only accepted path?
This is something we of the Nation would like to understand.
Thank you for listening to my question - I hope it is clear and I have spoken with honor.
John Redbear
"Leadership Syndrome - a Disease Model of Unwarranted Destructive T...
"Atheists save the world!" nice ring to it, yes?
You see, while I am an agnostic, I can understand the desire of youtube to enjoy a peaceful forum, discourage extremism and avoid being targetted by nutcases - and perhaps most of all, since it is NOT the only provider, and is quite mainstream, they do and should respect the majority opinion of the population they have grown to serve.
Unfortunate perhaps - but you see, like all forms of retribution - JREF as a figurehead for a stubborn form of belief represents the polar opposite of the more-common and no less laughable fundamentalist book-worshipping Christian.
My Hindi brothers call it karma. You see, WHY would you wish to bring cats to a dog convention? If you tell me the gentleman's motives, he will appear to me less a flagrant asshat.
And mildly I chide you, why do you object? God loves porn is a favorite phrase of mine, but not in Sunday School at a Baptist Church.
When I was young I met Mr. Burroughs at the University I attended. He was the speaker, and I the member of Student Government handing him a $4000 check for one hour of work, so he was quite open and kind to me.
Look him up - a very flagrant bisexual, beat generation, heroin... AND he shot his wife right between the eyes at a party in Mexico City playing "William Tell."
Of course, being white, and in Mexico, his only prosecutor was himself - and he walked the river... which is a way of describing a wise man's winding and difficult journey of life.
He was an Atheist, and a very strong mind. I respect him. He did not however, scream invectives or incite crowds. They hated him for his existence, not his intrusion into "their" America.
I must muse - why do many of European heritage have such a strong desire to make their truth, "THE" truth? None of my brothers and sisters of blood have ever understood that.
So - please explain if you could - and use this discussion to educate me on your own truths regarding these two questions:
First, why do you object to filtration of a "mainstream" internet channel. Others are available, so it is not censorship - it is just an obvious exercise of "appropriate vs inappropriate" and none of you can claim Atheism is mainstream. You know many would literally KILL you if they legally could - book worshippers are fanatics. Why goad them? Why are you offended you are not allowed to post pornography (to them) in an environment that is delightful to share with the children of so many people of traditional and even extreme Christian faith?
I will speak my feelings - as a Father, as a Human Being, and with the authority of many many years. I cannot imagine anyone with a mature mind defending this. I am Redbear - and you may choose whatever means to attack me - but you are a threat to all if you must incite hatred and fear to feel alive.
Atheists are not a group of sociopathic fools, are they?
Defend your view, white man. I stand ready.
Second - and I suppose part of it, all are welcome to post explanations of why so many Europeans (and others - we have one such in our midst) seem driven to use even violence to prove that their truth is the only accepted path?
This is something we of the Nation would like to understand.
Thank you for listening to my question - I hope it is clear and I have spoken with honor.
John Redbear
Tags: atheism, atheists, christianity, christians, free+speech, fundamentalism, john+redbear, philosophy, protest, stupid
Replies are closed for this discussion.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by no0ne on -
If Youtube was supposed to be for Xians only, then they should call themselves Godtube.
It doesn't matter how "mainstream" a site is or not; it's still censorship - and I think so whether something is "copyrighted/owned" or not. -
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Permalink Reply by Фелч Гроган on -
The issue is this -
We do not deny (or want to deny) nutjobs the right to post whatever they please.
The nutjobs WANT to deny us that right. They do so with fallacious complaints and accusations; organised campaigns of vote / rating stacking; scripts and bots to do the same; and many more unpleasant and immoral methods that contradict their own commandments and beliefs of "goodness". The issue is not that they are theists per se - it is that they are hypocrites, liars, abusers, cheats, snitches, litigants and whiners (as a tip of the iceberg observation). In pursuit of a greater good, they ignore the teachings of their own god. Would you feel the same should they choose to stifle the voice of native Americans ? Probably not. Bigotry is bigotry - it does not depend on skin colour. As a non-believer, many of these people would want to deny you citizenships, some would, as you said, even want to kill you. Do you not equate acceptance of their bigotry as as acceptance of defeat ? -
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Permalink Reply by John Redbear Jones-Keiser on -
Indeed - I agree, but Youtube is a populist forum.
Must all views be presented to the young? I think my enemies would not wish me to give them the "option" while their critical faculties are still unformed.
If I fight - in thought or fact, I would prefer an adult opponent.
Why do you want to do this and infuriate them? -
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Permalink Reply by Фелч Гроган on
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Must all views be presented to the young?
The young should not be online unsupervised. "We must protect the children" is a vile and dirty excuse that is used to impose on other people's rights when everything else fails. It is dirty because it implies that if you disagree, obviously you must want to harm children. It is a wicked argument. The young should not be used by adults in this way. -
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Permalink Reply by Rev Hellbound Alleee on -
"Defend your view, white man. I stand ready."
I'm sorry. You lost me here. This is tribalist/racist bullshit. And I'm not a man. This reads like a cartoon. Feh.
On the other hand, if this is a Subgenius parody, I applaud your genius. Or subgenius. Hilarious. -
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Permalink Reply by Фелч Гроган on
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On the other hand, if this is a Subgenius parody
I doubt it. SubGenius parody usually consists of unattributed plagiarism masquerading as cleverness. Plus Redbear seems like a nice guy. -
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Permalink Reply by John Redbear Jones-Keiser on
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------------------------------------------quotation--------------------------
Reply by Rev Hellbound Alleee 1 day ago
"Defend your view, white man. I stand ready."
I'm sorry. You lost me here. This is tribalist/racist bullshit. And I'm not a man. This reads like a cartoon. Feh.
On the other hand, if this is a Subgenius parody, I applaud your genius. Or subgenius. Hilarious.
------------------------------------------endquotation-------------------
In direct reply to RHA - and indirectly to others, I stand quite firmly in near-fictional parody.
Yes, the "red-man - white-man" tone of the dialogue is anacronistic and in light of the "diversity regardless of context" social standards seems quite stilted and I do like the term cartoon as used.
Sadly - the transition from "will not listen due to your race" to "racial orientation, even when not prejudicial or divisive in tone or intent is not part of our dialogue or understanding" occured all at once, without a transition - and it was during my lifetime,. It was like your culture had just... flipped a switch.
Sometime around 1972 or 73, almost a "click" - and what was a Jim Crow blindness/deafness became a Joan Baez/Rodney King "but...can't we all just get along? (places metaphorical daisy in the gunbarrel of debate).
Can you see that from the perspective of a culture that never drew lines on maps or pegged the ground to mark individual "property", never elected to (even after over 100 years of exposure) become technologically inventive, never overbred or overharvested (although stories of the great animals lost - I'm sure one was the Giant Sloth, referred to more callus and abusive times) this has left massive gaps in the road that would have led to union in spirit between two massive continent dominating cultures.
We were overwhelmed, but it does not diminish our near-universal (within aboriginal tribal groups) foundations and ethics/faiths that were focussed on personal dignity, stoicism, land respect, violence as art of war and passion and spirit growth for young warriors (mostly men, but the woman warrior-priest/shaman is a tradition in our "tribe").
We are left now, due to this "flipping of the script" and instead of organic dialogue and slow revelation and union with our now-shared culture based on judeo-christian/eurocultural ownership and individual gain standards for achievement, we have.... an unwritten chapter - a blank page.
What spring within this european colonial ethic creates in YOU as modern cultural representatives - non Christian at that, what can be seen in our policies at a national level as genocidal aggression, and locally as an overweening need to affirm land "ownership"?
More pointedly the undeniable evidence of an unspoken hunger, a trait, a commitment as a culture - to possession. Possession of land, of liberties such as the one we are discussing here that perhaps create disharmony among groups, possession and control and a fire-like consumption ethic that is spreading worldwide, and pushing the human species toward overbreeding and overutilization of the earth (to the point of environmental meltdown/crises and beyond).
I ask again - loudly now.... it seems the question almost cannot be HEARD by folks on your side of the fence we share, please tell us, tell me - I have no agenda but trying to resolve the complete absence of understanding - this desire expressed in global action.... what CAUSES or MAKES these patterns of "mine is mine, yours is yours and if ours, I'm after it" so sensible?
That is the question I am asking: Why does the european judeo-christian perspective (and IMHO mirrored in the dialogue here) even exist?
Why are arguments and wars and business dealings and agricultural and mating and language always come down to very emotional shouting matches and even war-to-genocide conflicts for your socio-economic systems?
Why as individuals does this make sense to you personally?
Cartoons indeed - as apparently our paths seem either illogical or fictional to you - as the quite well spoken comment I quoted in this reply shows.
Why? -
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Permalink Reply by Wolf Martinus on -
Sorry, is this some sort of joke where I don't get the funny part?
As a native colonian white man, let me tell you: "Do kannst mich ens jähn han". -
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Permalink Reply by John Redbear Jones-Keiser on
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Ahemm (without reference or using a program to translate, I'm trying but just, don't remember the words - I'm going back to high school here) Ich nichst verstehen Deutche, could you translate so I understand your statement?
Also - indeed Wolf, you are a native now - this is clear.
But still your leaders and most of you as neighbors believe land can be owned - and we believe the land once we are mature, owns us, and we are honor bound to maintain it and keep it as healthy as we can for the next generation.
You see - the aboriginal nations, those of us who still have and maintain the old way, we are now your brothers within the land.
I'm trying to reach out with this dialogue - trying to determine this incredibly difficult concept - and I think you can tell I do understand English and speak it with some grace and attention to detail -
...my Mother is 93 now - and is passing through phases of very advanced dementia.
I am walking this path with her - and I'm learning something that is the heart of this dialogue... words seem to create hungers.
Look - I appear white, talk white, own lots of stuff, make lots of money, "own" land etc etc.
As Mother loses her ability to listen, think and speak words - it is incredibly painful for her. But, she has gone very very far, much further then my Father - (this is some kind of illness from environmental contamination - they lived near love canal in the 50s).
The point is this - I'm of necessity having to learn not to use words, but still interact, and to have empathy, I think I may be also learning not to think in words.
And the culture of "mine vs yours" fell off like a false skin. It is very interesting, very noticeable in all my actions, and has brought a lot of peace to a real driver-driver Alpha personality.
Fascinating - any thoughts?
....so now we have TWO points of discussion, the "ownership" and win-lose absolute necessity of victory in discussions of theology or philosophy (the initial one) even in the face of potential conflict or chaos that is not immediate or profitable to the parties to the debate.
That's topic number one - why the win/lose construct.
Topic two - is it possible that this is a word-virus?
A viral set of thoughts - that accumulate to form a self destructive, contagious and self-replicating set of interactions of words, that create and directly generate specific thoughts and output destructive patterns on massive scale in individual behaviors and societal changes.
It would explain India and China RIGHT NOW - as they go global capitalist in philosophy of life, (not good news at all btw).
WOW... that to my knowledge is not an area of current or past study within human social sciences. I know the Safir-Whorf hypothesis (cognitive linguistics) says this: If you don't know the words, you can't think the thoughts.
Could the world-eating illness be a word disease of mankinds ethical construct? WOW.
...viral thought. It is ringing true to me. Please - the minds on this forum are extraordinary - can we keep this dialogue lively? Perspectives please - such thoughts as this are potentially - world altering, no?
Here's an example - the Hellenistic democratic concept of equality, the root cause of its spread, and the reason the thoughts were there to be gleaned by Jefferson and our other founding fathers who pushed forward concepts of individual rights and dignity...
...I love this image, and it makes me feel hope:
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Permalink Reply by John Redbear Jones-Keiser on
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See my new discussion post or just click the link below - my questions are quite serious in my concern about what is going on in the world we share.
What I am doing is an attempt to bridge a gap.... invisible to many, but perhaps it is becoming an opening in a wall.
"Atheists save the world" that is a headline that is overdue
"Leadership Syndrome" Social chaos and species-destructive behavior... -
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