My OP was caused by my interest, why meditation is attractive and beneficial for others. I did not ask for the projection, that it should be beneficial for me.
People are different, they have different needs.
It is obvious, that people are motivated to pay the price of getting bored by some exercises, when they expect the reward of fulfilling a need. It is also obvious, that meditation is a beneficial method of homeostation for those people, who feel some kind of mental or emotional dishomeostasis.
But those people without this dishomeostasis just are not motivated to get bored, when they experience it as nothing but displeasure, when there is reward to earn.
... calls it the arrogance of ignorance.
Such philistines devalue and discard other people's cognitive production not by learned judgment, they devalue, what they themselves are either too dumb to understand, or what they are too lazy to invest effort in to first understand, before they judge.
The pattern of devaluing, what cannot be reached, is known since millennia. But I see a trend, that the willingness to earn anything with a lot of effort, is dwindling. Choosing only, what is easy to get and devaluing everything else seems to be a growing general tendency.
The effort to learn and gain knowledge is based upon curiosity and a need to know more, it is an intellectual effort. This cannot be compared with the futile efforts to restore homeostasis, when there is no dishomeostasis. It cannot be compared with the emotional effort to suffer something unpleasant like boredom.
Following this logic, every person is interested for example in the benefits of radiation on cancer should should gain personal experience of radiation?
I accept, that meditation is beneficial for those people, who feel a need for it. The claim, that meditation can be beneficial for every person, independent of feeling a need, appears to me a claim as unfounded as is the existence of a god.
No modality will be beneficial to those who do not try it.
Maruli, your OP was at least two things to me:
1) Meditation is trying to stop thoughts.
Hopefully this misunderstanding has been corrected?
2) A general mass of woo woo sounding terms undefined but characterized as something to do with or connected to meditation/'spirituality', ask 6 different people what 'spirituality' means to them and you will likely get 6 different answers.
What do you mean now by 'homeostation' and 'dishomeostasis'? Here you are again working from a faulty premise i believe, or at least some personal understanding of what is happening with people with your own special terminology.
I.M.O it would help if you would either clarify your terms as you use them, or perhaps stick to terms that have common usage and significance.
In my replies to you I have not presumed to expect you to feel the same way as myself or anyone else about the subject of meditation, but merely to try to help clear up what I feel are profound misunderstandings of it. To this end I feel we are not yet even talking about the same thing, the endeavor is to try and get us on the same page as to what we are actually talking about!
I honestly feel you are reacting to comments from your own special interpretation of meditation and not from having really understood or practised with right understanding. This is not me saying anything bad about you, but it is a plea to you to try and agree to at least even be looking at the same map before discussing the territory.
Best wishes, Nick
I try an analogy. When I was a child, I never had a headache. I was puzzled, what it was that other people took aspirines for. By taking an aspirine without a headache, I would have experienced not benefits, and it would not have taught me the meaning of a headache.
In my puzzled question, meditation is like the aspirine. I could not experience benefits without having a headache, without the need for it.
By dishomeostasis I mean to feel the urge to some specific behavior to fulfill a need, for example the headache. Homeostation is the behavior to restore the homeostasis of not feeling any need. Taking the aspirine is an example.
I was and am accepting all information about how others experience meditation as beneficial. But I do not accept the unfounded claim, that it would be beneficial for me, it I would only do, what is beneficial for others.
Of course you should not do it if you have no interest, but that disqualifies you from claiming it would not benefit you as you haven't done it. No trying to 'follow your breath' a few times does not really count as trying it in this instance.
What if the illness was only noticeable with its cessation?
I used to dislike jogging whilst understanding that some people found it beneficial, that didn't make me think that I wouldn't benefit from it though. I felt I was pretty fit until I tried to run round the block!
Just saying ;)
but that disqualifies you from claiming it would not benefit you as you haven't done it.This is the same reasoning as with the claim of religious people, that praying is beneficial. It is their claim, it is their job to proof any claim. It is no my job to proof the absence of the benefits of praying for myself.
When someone makes the claim, that meditation is either beneficial for everybody or for persons other than himself, the job to prove it is his. I do not claim the absence of benefits for me. I reject the claim, that it has benefits for me. That is not the same.
My point is that I have no need, that could be fulfilled with meditation. The question, if in the case of a need, meditation would then be beneficial for me or not, cannot be answered.
It is the same with prayer. The question, if prayer can be beneficial due to the placebo effect, can only be answered, if the person has a need that serves as an urge to pray.
"This is the same reasoning as with the claim of religious people, that praying is beneficial."
Not even remotely the same, false equivalence.
There are studies that show the benefit of prayer, the claim of religious people is that this is so because of other claims that they make, such as a personal god who answers their prayer is why it is beneficial.
Meditation is an experiment, no claims of 'supernatural' providence need be invoked.
Also you are making a claim, you're claiming a negative result without even doing the experiment.
I have not claimed meditation would be beneficial to you. It might cause you psychosis for all I know.
"My point is that I have no need, that could be fulfilled with meditation. The question, if in the case of a need, meditation would then be beneficial for me or not, cannot be answered."
See here you are claiming in effect to know why people meditate and that you know that you don't have that need...and that you know meditation fulfills this need. What is this knowledge based on? What is this need?
I accept every statement, that anybody here has made about himself.
But NOBODY is rationally able to make any claim about me.
NOBODY is able to judge, if I personally have or lack a need to meditate.
NOBODY is able to judge, if meditation could have ANY effect upon me or not.
I appreciate all the answers I got, which were limited to people talking about their personal experience.
I prefer to stop at this point instead of deal with projections upon my person.
I agree that meditation isn't something that is good for everyone at all times... and I disagree that we should push though pain and annoyance in meditation for the end result. I grew up in a meditation centre in a cult - and was asked to meditate for long periods as a child aged between 5 and adulthood. I did have some interesting experiences in group meditations and I did loose the feeling in my legs at times. Everyone commented and encouraged me to sit still and be silent, but I didn't tell anyone of my pain, because it wasn't talked about. What a load of crap! Totally missed the point there. Meditation should be a voluntary thing that is a good experience, and if we do it laying down and fall asleep, well that's fine too - I was given the message as a child that it was wrong to fall asleep when meditating and that the aim was to stay still and be silent and calm, regardless of pain or distraction.
I realise that adults are better at looking after their own needs and will move or get up and walk around. So I'll stick with, meditation has some useful techniques, that can be used if people find them useful and want to do them.
I suspect also, that it might be a bit of a placebo effect also - in that if we distract our mind and trick ourselves into believing that it will give us well being, then in fact this is the out come.... it works for me - and it would be interest to see the science on it - either way - do what you will in life - and if these techniques float your boat - great!