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Permalink Reply by Teagraves on October 23, 2011 at 10:31am

"Love the sinner, hate the sin" always confused me a bit. If you love someone, it...doesn't seem right to try and oppress them, no matter if you believe you're doing the "right thing" ... because not everyone is you.

I mean it'd be different if they were debating ice cream flavors or something, but it gets ridiculous when people feel that what random people they don't even know do in bed is horrible and wrong and they need to stop it. I mean...I don't know about you guys, but I reallyyyy don't think about the sorts of things other people do in bed! xD

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Permalink Reply by mojo5501 on October 23, 2011 at 10:45am

I never really understood the saying either because it comes across so judgmental and self-righteous to say to somebody: I love you as a person but you choose your faults (which I will define for you) and could change them if you really wanted to (IE: Loved Jesus/Jesus will 'save' you). It's the image of a parent figure making a child of everybody else and expecting blind obedience 'because dad said so'.

 

I will support a person's right to privacy and their private thoughts and beliefs are of no concern of mine.  When their actions are unjust (discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation, for example) or hurt others, that's the point I will feel the need to 'do the right thing' or at least say something so my silence isn't mistaken for acceptance.

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Permalink Reply by Teagraves on October 23, 2011 at 10:57am

I agree! Although, I find it pretty hard to discuss this topic with people who aren't really willing to listen to the other side, anyway :s

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Permalink Reply by mojo5501 on October 25, 2011 at 10:36am

I know....the different between dialogue and monologue! ha  At least use the phrase, "We must agree to disagree about this subject"...so you get the opportunity to squeeze in your opinion within their diatribe.

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Permalink Reply by Lisa Schmidt on October 23, 2011 at 11:41am

"Love the sinner, hate the sin" is the evangelicals' way of distancing themselves from their own bigotry and avoiding accusations of discrimination.  I think it's hair-splitting and it's not really fooling anyone.  Can you love someone and hate what they do?  Yes, but not in the process of labelling them a "sinner".  Calling someone a "sinner" states a belief about that person as a person, i.e. that they are going to Hell.  Not to mention that belief informs action, and even if one professes to love someone and hate what they do, it's a pretty twisted kind of love.  If someone ever said to me, "Well, I'll always be your friend.  Love the sinner, hate the sin...", I would no longer consider that person a friend because I find the concept of sin (and by extension, Hell) inherently hateful.  I would not do "love the believer, debate the belief system" thing, because I am anti-religious and not capable of loving a believer.  It's not that I hate them, I just know that they don't love me.  If they did, they wouldn't believe what they believe.  I love myself, so there is no room in my life for people like that.

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Permalink Reply by Pat on October 23, 2011 at 12:48pm

IMHO, there is no such thing as "sin."  It is as an imaginary and made up idea as their god who condemns it.  "Sin" is always defined by religions.  I grant you, they will include things in their definition which are evil and immoral, e.g murder, theft, and other transgressions against the good of social order.  They also leave out a lot of other transgressions against the good of social order, e.g. slavery and child abuse.  And, they include behavior which has nothing to do with the good of social order, but happens to offend their personal sensibilities, e.g. gay relationships, sexual and reproductive freedom.  And, transgressions ofsilly ancient rules against eating pork, shell fish, and what talismans a person should use during their periods of magic incantations (prayer).

Here's an example of how ludicrous the ides of "sin" is.  Two guys having a cheeseburger the last Friday of March, in the year 1960.  One, a Catholic, sins because he is eating meat on a Friday during Lent. For him, cheeseburgers are fine, but it pisses his god off if you eat them at the wrong time.  The other, a Jew, can never eat a cheeseburger, because eating milk and meat at the same time pisses of his god. Had he left the cheese off his burger, things would have been just fine. (Thanks to George Carlin for this example)

"Hate the sin, but love the sinner." B-U-L-L-S-H-I-T!!!!  It's cover for religious bigotry, and it's code for saying, "I hate you and what you stand for.  The only way I will ever accept you is if you think like me, agree with me, act like me, and abandoned everything about you that I, and my in-group, personally don't approve of."  In other words, f@&k you're freedom to be free from me.

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Permalink Reply by mojo5501 on October 25, 2011 at 10:33am

And when it comes to marriage, why do religious people in the U.S. get to define it and authorize what is considered 'legal' in the justice system?  The term 'traditional marriage' should be as ancient and backward as the term "marriage by purchase".  With time, we will hopefully get to a point similar to bi-racial marriage...which was considered taboo within MY lifetime of 48 years..but which has become a 'non-issue' and not controversial at all.

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Permalink Reply by Goz on October 23, 2011 at 1:50pm

I hate that stupid saying...They sure have a funny way of showing "love" now don't they.

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Permalink Reply by mojo5501 on October 25, 2011 at 10:23am

Exactly.  I took a little time to research what the term 'love' means in the New Testament and wonder if today's evangelical Christians take the time to ever look back and see how Jesus (their prophet, not mine) defined the obligations of love.  The way I understand it, it sounds like the term was meant in the Greek connotation 'agape'...the deepest affection, loving others based on doing good things for others. NOT picking and choosing aspects to love/hate. A more charitable, compassionate implication.

 

It is easy to love others of our family and people who already think like us and act like us...the Greek connotation 'phileo'....brotherly love means we already LIKE the person! It's not difficult to accept the faults of people we already like!  So the challenge for Christians who 'hate' homosexuality is to broaden their definition to universal love.  There seems to be a tendency for even the most culturally conservative people to accept the gay people in their 'inner circle' of family and friends...why can't they broaden the circle?

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Permalink Reply by Dallas the Phallus on October 27, 2011 at 4:59pm

His study shows that it is possible for individuals to consciously love another class of humans even while unwittingly supporting systematic discrimination against them.

 

I disagree. That isn't love. You don't love someone by viewing them as "less than" you. Love is just a convenient word to dress up the nastiness of their view.

 

But a fairly decent article, nonetheless. But I think he gives fundies too much credit, personally.

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Permalink Reply by mojo5501 on October 27, 2011 at 5:55pm

Did you read this part:

Evangelicalism still has an orientation against social change, still bases views on pseudoscience, still has a simplistic and overconfident approach to biblical  interpretation, and still is unwilling to tolerate those who disagree.    

I think that was the author, Jonathan Dudley, saying fundamentalists/evangelicals are backward and intolerant! His  book, "Broken Words: The Abuse of Science and Faith in American Politics" sounds like one I'd like to read.

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Permalink Reply by Dallas the Phallus on October 27, 2011 at 6:07pm

Yes, I read that. But he also seemed to take them at their word that they felt "love" for those they persecuted. I may have misinterpreted that, but that's how it came off to me. And that is the one thing I took exception with.

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