Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Miles La Mont on June 30, 2011 at 1:13am

Firstly you're assuming that Christians need a justification of their beliefs. I think we can safely say that no matter how you present the argument they'll find a way of explaining it away.

You're also misunderstanding why he supposedly died. It wasn't to curb the crime rate, so that's not a strong argument. It was for man's sins against God, not man's sins against mankind. Like all of the teachings of Jesus, they've turned it around and manipulated the message so much it bears little resemblance in meaning.

You'll find what you're looking for in the bible, but just remember, it's all subject to interpretation, so it will still come down to your voice of reason against the voices of the unreasonable.

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Permalink Reply by Dark Angel on June 30, 2011 at 2:13am

It wasn't to curb the crime rate,

Obviously.

Firstly you're assuming that Christians need a justification of their beliefs.

Not true. One of my best friends runs a christian radio station (I love the music) she is always preaching to me that jesus died to save us and countless other reasons I should follow him. And I keep trying to tell her, not true, he died because he was a bad boy (sorta). He did not voluntarily lay on the cross. as can be found here: he was picked up for:  lying (Matthew 26:61; Mark 14:58-59); blasphemy (Matthew 26:65-66; Mark 14:64), and several other infractions, not to mention the jews wanted him dead (Matthew 26:3-4; Mark 14:1-2; Luke 22:2; John 11:53) because they were jealous (Mark 15:10).

How do you guys respond when someone says "...jesus is good, he died for our sins" when the very bible the read says otherwise - well it says both? Unfortunately for me, my wife is a catholic that suddenly turned hard-core, so I am up against this daily with their friends and family.

and your right - no argument when your dealing with "emotion" vs "facts" (or facsimile there of). I guess I am trying to find where the "tide" changed from being arrested for crimes to "dying for our sins" perspective. where did that come from? I know its in Pet3:18 but why are they focusing on THAT aspect and not the trial? As I said above, you cannot be put on death row and call it a sacrifice.

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Permalink Reply by Natalie A Sera on July 6, 2011 at 12:37am

Actually, the Jews didn't give a flying leap about him. Would-be messiahs were a dime a dozen at the time, and there was nothing to distinguish him from any of the others. If the gospels say the Jews wanted him dead, it was because they were trying to convert the Romans, and it doesn't sound good to say "You killed god, now please worship him". So the Jews were the easy scapegoat. There were so many factors in the Crucifixion that went against Jewish law, and if the Jews wanted him dead, they could very easily have done it themselves. So let's put this Christian lie to rest -- enough Jews have died because of Christian anti-semitism based on New Testament lies; we don't need any more. (Can one be an atheist/agnostic and still be a Jew? Yes, because Jews are a tribe; an ethnic group, and you are born into it, just like a Japanese is still a Japanese, having been born Japanese, even if he becomes an atheist, even though the Japanese have their own native religions).

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Permalink Reply by Dark Angel on July 6, 2011 at 1:18am

@natailie

hmm ok, that  post is way off target from the OP.

Actually, the Jews didn't give a flying leap about him.

Now when I grew up, if someone didn't give a rats a$$ about you, they just ignored you - you were not worth the time: Listed below are some reference that not only were they interested in him but hated and wanted him dead.

check this link out:

Jews Hated Christ

All that because they didnt care about him?

If the gospels say the Jews wanted him dead

if? have you read the bible? See above - there is no "IF"

If the gospels say the Jews wanted him dead, it was because they were trying to convert the Romans,

Are you suggesting that the jews were trying to convert the Romans? I must have missed that, can you post a reference link.

if the Jews wanted him dead, they could very easily have done it themselves

 

This is incorrect: The Jews did not kill Christ because the Jews could not kill Christ. They did not have legal authority in matters of capital crimes under Roman law at that time.

 

the rest of your post is off topic.

However the above you pointed out only proves the "non" sacrifice issue. It was all based on punishment that he died. There was no ritual conducted. Arrested, Tried and crucified.

Where is the sacrifice?

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Permalink Reply by booklover on June 30, 2011 at 8:02am

None of it even happened.  It's a story.  Not even a good one.

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Permalink Reply by Ken on June 30, 2011 at 12:21pm

Interesting questions and always fun to think about. 

 

Working under the assumption there was an individual that underwent the conflictingly events described in the gospels, at the very least you could categorize this as "state assisted suicide". 

 

Another imponderable in my opinion, if there was supposed to be a sacrificial atonement (i.e., death and servitude in hell) then Jesus' death in the gospels don't cover it. 

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Permalink Reply by Dark Angel on July 2, 2011 at 8:25am

@ken

State assisted suicide would not apply in this situation for one main reason:

 he was commited of a crime, and the punishment for that crime is death.

I have been thinking about this, and it would seem to boil down to the same old dumb issue: there are two stories going on, the fantasy one and the real one.

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Permalink Reply by Brian Wood on June 30, 2011 at 1:54pm

No one in human history ever did a single thing for anyone else.  I'd dive into a raging torrent to save a kid, not because I give a rat's ass about the kid, but because I'd feel awful if I didn't.  Totally selfish.  "jesus"™, if it even existed, flung himself into execuation 'cause he'd have felt terrible if he didn't.  Totally selfish.

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Permalink Reply by Dark Angel on July 2, 2011 at 8:31am

@brian wood

Yup I agree, that is someting many of my friends tell about me. ".. you act more like a christian that christians do, so I can't believe you are not"

blah! My retort has always been the same - "You do not need to be religious to be good" (not that I acknowledge good/evil, I like the buhdist saying: There is not good or evil, only how you justify your actions)

However, from what I have been researching, he did not "fling" himself into execution. he was nabbed.

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Permalink Reply by Jim DePaulo on June 30, 2011 at 9:36pm

The "sacrifice for our sins" is a creation of Paul.  The idea that one individual could absorb the sins of humanity has no basis in Jewish theology and would have been seen as extreme hubris ( if you recall Jeebus was a Jew).  It does, however, have credence in the Greek mystery cult traditions – the very people Paul was selling his new religion to.  As Paul (Saul, Solon) was from a Greek city (Tarsis) he was well school on the Greek traditions and their religious mythology.

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Permalink Reply by Dark Angel on July 2, 2011 at 8:39am

@Jim DePaulo

Yes but here is food for thought:

Again, he could not "absorb the sins" because he was arrested. All of his torment was asked of the jews that the romans carry out. To make an example of him(they could not because of religious reason). I mean the jews hated him anyways John:7:1, 11:53-54.

 

NOW - If there were some type of ritual or ceremony that he and his followers conducted, say.... putting him on an altar to sacrifice, uh, ya that would carry some weight as a "self sacrifice" for humanity (however, I still think it would be in vain).

 

But punishment by execution? Still do not see the sacrifice there. And you are correct Jim, just more examples of bible story telling using other (earlier?) traditions.

 

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Permalink Reply by Secular Forces 2013 on July 3, 2011 at 9:08pm

and then there's that docmentry I watched on linktv today about scientolgy; does not look good for cali nor clearwater florida; look out! boycott while we're ahead!

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