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Permalink Reply by Nabil Ashour on August 5, 2010 at 8:52pm

Thank you sir for a wonderful and thought out response. I go no further in my assertion that Islam liberates women than what you basiclaly pointed out as to what degree something can liberate.

You hit the nail on the head. It is the opposite of liberty but that was her husband not Islam. No man is supposed to treat their wife like my dad treated her. My mom basically stayed muslim through it all and came out on top now you say thats not related to how islam liberates women I have to disagree on the one point because of what is actually going on in Aserbaijan with mother's against the war. Basically woemn in Islam and christianity are saints and you cannot argue with them so they set up this mother's against the war to stop fighting there. Does not liberate women? Yes and no.

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Permalink Reply by Rob van Senten on August 9, 2010 at 3:55am

You hit the nail on the head. It is the opposite of liberty but that was her husband not Islam.

thats not related to how islam liberates women I have to disagree on the one point because of what is actually going on in Azerbaijan

You are still conflating the actions of people and the convictions/beliefs of people with the dogmas and doctrines that form Islam. The actions of the individual are not by definition a representation of the dogmas and doctrines involved.

For example, white supremacy is discriminatory and racist, that would not change if a white nazi helped a black woman across the street. Neither does your example about certain individual's actions have any meaning in relation to the dogmas and doctrines that form Islam.

Islam in the sense of the dogmas and doctrines that form it is not liberating towards women because it subjugates women to men. Subjugation is the opposite of liberty which means that Islam does not liberate women.

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Permalink Reply by Nabil Ashour on August 10, 2010 at 12:15am

Yes Islam has a god that is worshiped. Is allah subjugating Women? is the question. Yes.

2. Does Allah opress or Liberate Women?

Thank you very much.
XX

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Permalink Reply by Jo Jerome on August 24, 2010 at 12:21pm

Jumping into the bonfire late but, here it goes...

2. Does Allah opress or Liberate Women?

Neither, in the sense that Allah does not exist.

Relative to some other cultures, and relative to the eye of the beholder, yes. Islam can appear quite liberating to women. Like you pointed out early on, allowing women to own property for instance. Some would even argue that the burqa liberates women as they no longer fear being oogled by men. There are also many different flavors of Islam, some quite liberal, some very fundamentalist. It is the later that makes headlines and as such, is what most Westerners think of when they think "Islam."

The relative definition of "Liberated" among most Atheists and freethinkers is that women are truly equal to men in all aspects of society.

- Are Muslim women allowed to serve as clergy?

- Where multiple wives are permissible, are multiple husbands permissible?

- Are women allowed everywhere in the Mosque and holy places that men are allowed?

- Do women have the same rights to initiate divorce as men? Are divorcees treated the same by society (e.g.; shunned or forgiven for divorcing their spouse)?

- When Muslim women die honorably, is there a paradise full of virgin men waiting for them as a reward?

- Finally, there might be a liberal flavor or three of Islam that say yes to some or all of these. The next question is, is that in line with the teachings of the Qu'ran? If not, why continue to even call it "Islam?"

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