I wanted to put this question out there to see how strongly everyone feels on this subject. Being that most of us trust in scientific fact and reasoning, I was wondering if everyone is absolutely, undeniably, 100% sure that a god doesn't exist.  I personally take into account that there is no proof of any cosmic creator so therefore I am about 99.9999% sure that there is no god. However we all agree that science is an ever evolving field and I don't think that there will ever be any proof to support the existence of a supreme being, but I can't be 100% sure until there is concrete proof against one. I would like to know what all of your thoughts on this.  

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@Michael,

would this be a fair summary of your position:

 

a) existing wholly in reality is a necessary requirement of Existence

b) Being subject to the laws of physics is necessary inside of a physically governed universe

c) Definitions of God often consider God to be a transcendental entity

d) Definitions that don't consider God to Transcend the physical would make the entity subject to all physical laws by being existent in this reality.

 

therefore, transcendent Gods necessarily do not exist, and physical Gods have no powers that are not physically possible and therefore achievable by any highly technological species, therefore making them beings and not gods.

 


More or less. And I think the same way for a soul and a spirit. Metaphors, at best.

ok. hopefully more rather than less, I wouldn't want to be pushing you into being a straw man here!

 

I'm still concerned that the inherent problems with empiricism come into this, which was one of my original problems with going Gnostic.

 

Point B "Being subject to the laws of physics is necessary inside of a physically governed universe". I would propose this is not deduced like points a, c, d. This is based on empirical observations? Our understanding that everything follows physical laws is based on observations of things following physical laws, in actual fact there are things that our current models don't explain, and theoretical things like dark matter have to be used to make theories work in practice. We may get to a point where we can explain everything, but I'm not sure that will negate the one underlying flaw with empiricism: that we cannot be 100% certain that thing will continue to act as they have in the past.

 

Is there an argument for empiricism that makes it 100% reliable? am I wrong needing empiricism for this premise?


I think the knowledge we gain from empirical evidence can be said to be valid and certain. I also think that empiricists that assert that our perceptions have primacy over existence would say that our empiric knowledge is not 100% reliable. Skeptics often are those that claim the it is our perceptions that are the first building block of cognition and not reality itself. I would argue that when we are aware of something, it is the existent object that we are aware of first and not the awareness itself, until later. Existence has primacy over consciousness. I think we can be certain that in the future causality and noncontradiction will still be governing any reality that exists and God will still be impossible.
If God is that one narrated in the bible, the one at the garden of Eden, the one that created the whole universe in 6 days and rested on the seventh day. The one that destroyed the whole world iwith water and promised to destroy it wirh fire on a later date. The guy whose voice Moses heard, saw his back and who gave the ten commandments he personally wrote. the one that stopped the construction of a tower that would reach heaven, his abode. The guy who has a chosen race. Then, he cannot be the creator. That guy is  a mere creation of an imperfect human. He cannot have existed, cannot possibly exist, now or in the future. That beiing has no role in the universe as we know it today. He is too primitive, unintelligent, immature, parochial and incapable to be a creator of the universe.

@leveni (to continue where the reply threads have run out)

Agnosticism and gnosticism should never have been brought up in atheism in the first place.

 

evidence of existence = knowledge of existence

 

imaginary concepts = two camps: agnostic belief and gnostic belief. two methods of "knowing" the imaginary, or unevidenced.

 

The very existence of agnostic atheists is a fallacy in itself. Anyone who has any portion of their brain that accepts a god concept is not an atheist. They are simply infinitely weak theists. Of course it serves the aims of politicians to lump together agnostics with atheists. But I disagree fundamentally with that assertion. Atheists live in the real, agnostics reserve a space for the unreal.

Thanks for the reply. Especially:


Uncertainty = contradictory evidence.

God = no evidence, there is no uncertainty there

Leveni and TNT666,

I agree with TNT that you can assert that you are some combination of a/gnosticism and a/theism, but you will not necessarily make good sense. I was trying to define these words, as I think appropriate, as the first group being related to a belief in knowledge of a thing and the second, a belief in the existence of a thing. If you will only define gnosticism as it relates to faith, then I guess, we will not agree on the fact that I believe one who is gnostic has a proper affirmative belief that knowledge of a certain thing is possible. And I disagree with TNT that we cannot be gnostic about a negative. I believe that I can be certain (gnostic) that it is impossible for any god to exist (atheist). The way I understand agnosticism is that it describes someone who believes that knowledge one way or another is possible. I believe I can come up with reasons why every other combination of these terms, other than gnostic atheism, is invalid. Any belief in any god, whether certain or not, is flat out wrong. And asserting that we cannot have knowledge as to whether or not God exists, while believing that He doesn't, or agnostic atheism, is also wrong.

I can understand Gnostic atheism. Proving there is no god, by showing the impossibility of any existence of God. Also by showing everything can be explained through natural means, the god thing never even enters the equation.

As for the other 3 combinations. I can understand the theists points of view, and I think they are just lying to themselves. But the the agnostic atheist, it's hard for me to make sense of.
I think all the people on this thread asserting that we cannot be 100% sure there is no God are agnostic atheists in that they believe that knowledge that there is no God is impossible yet they believe that God does not exist (for the most part). I don't really see a significant difference between agnostics and skeptics.
At a philosophical level gnosticity is rendered useless and obsolete by evidence, so 'gnostic atheist' is a redundancy. Gnosticism fundamentally does not refer to knowing 'just anything' it refers specifically to knowing what others call "unknowable". In a couple of conversations in my past I used the expression 'gnostic atheist', to distinguish myself from the endless number of agnostics using the word atheism, but it was misguided. Atheists being on the defensive, on an atheist website, about things "unknowable", really only contributes to my dose of humour in day :)

The difference????? the word BELIEF. There are only three 'levels of evidence' :

-undisputed evidence.... "the near roundness of the earth"

-contradictory evidence......  "active chemicals make humans sick"

-non existent... "unicorns and gods"

 

Neither of the three situations require 'belief' for a skeptic. A true skeptic functions on evidence alone. Honest dialogue requires the use of the word 'uncertainty' for only the second situation. Any skeptic who can "believe" in a possible god given total and complete lack of evidence is no skeptic at all. Personally, 'belief' is the one word I have completely banned from my vocabulary since meeting people on this website, because of so-called agnostics who throw that word around like it was some sort of badge of honour to remain friendly with religious folk.

 

Frankly, the popularity of the words agnostic and skeptic as buzz words in our Western civilisation may be the greatest contribution the 'new' atheists made to society in the last two decades. And the natural trendy instinct of humans means there are many people jumping on the band wagon of skepticism, and trying to redefine it, making it more 'inclusive'.

 

To the three above situations, a skeptic responds yes, maybe, no.

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