Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Vince Watkins on March 17, 2011 at 1:38pm

You can most certainly believe in a deity without having your thoughts on the subject sufficiently organized or studied as to comprise a theology. Theology is the study or system of study of deity, not the belief in it. Most children believe in God because their parents told them there was a God. "Mama said" is hardly a theology.

 

As for certainty in mathematics, are you absolutely certain that 2+2=4? Do you reserve any iota of doubt?

 

There seems to be a lack of understanding on this thread of logic... that is, of non-contradictory thinking. When an assertion contradicts itself, it is not true and cannot actually exist in reality. For example: is it possible that there exists a pink unicorn that is simultaneously not a pink unicorn?

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Permalink Reply by DF Sparks on March 17, 2011 at 1:45pm

Your math analogy is nowhere near as convincing or on point as you think it is.  I put two stones in a pile. I add two more; there are four. it is proven that two plus two equals four

 

Not at all comparable to the existence of a being/entity/force defined in such a way that does not lend itself to that kind of proof.

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Permalink Reply by Vince Watkins on March 17, 2011 at 1:56pm

All you need do is put two pink unicorns that are simultaneously not pink unicorns in a pile. Then add two more. Now count them.

Seriously, if one can't propose a coherent assertion, one is not even ready to think about science or math.

Can A = nonA?

Then can a thing exist that is a pink unicorn that is simultaneously not a pink unicorn?

This really isn't that hard, folks.

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Permalink Reply by Vince Watkins on March 17, 2011 at 4:38pm

Jonathan,

Mocking me doesn't make me wrong.

And if you look at the question posed by the title of the thread and the title and nature of this site and the assertion you made to even join this site, I think it obviously has a lot to do with the "over arch" of the discussion and of the point of the entire forum.

Do you have anything intelligent to contribute to the conversation? Or are you going to spew more ad hominems?

Joel,

I think you're just upset because you can't talk down to me, though you've tried.

DF,

By all means, sir... please point out the flaws. It is insufficient to assert that there exists a flaw without identifying it. Please be so kind as to demonstrate.

Permalink Reply by DF Sparks on March 17, 2011 at 4:23pm

If one can't see the flaws in his analogies, one is not even ready to have this conversation.

 

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Permalink Reply by MCT on March 17, 2011 at 2:23pm

Defined in what way? Beings that cannot be defined or have supernatural qualities do not have the necessary character to be subject to proof and therefore cannot exist. A being defined in such a way as to not lend itself to proof by reduction to perceptual evidence via logic cannot exist. It is proof enough to say that the impossible is impossible. I think that should be self evident and leaving any room for this epistemologically or metaphysically is irrational.

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Permalink Reply by DF Sparks on March 17, 2011 at 4:33pm

Defined as an intelligence or conscious or force or energy or however the hell smug people who say "I dont believe in a white man in a beard in the sky" define their god.  Something like that could theoretically exist without being measurable or testable with any current technology we have or will have any time soon. I don't at all believe that it does.

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Permalink Reply by Vince Watkins on March 17, 2011 at 4:57pm

I totally believe in intelligence.
I totally believe in consciousness.
I totally believe in forces (gravity, electromagnetic, strong nuclear and weak nuclear).
I totally believe in energy.

Wow! I'm very excited!

Just one thing... these things are not deities. They don't actually qualify for the job description. I think you need a little more work on your proposal. What else ya got?

Permalink Reply by MCT on March 18, 2011 at 1:57pm

Yeah, what VW said. If it cannot be defined, or if it is defined with supernatural abilities or omniscience or omnipotence, or as the creator of all things or based on a metaphor or anything else impossible, it is impossible. For sure. If it subject to causal law, we can study it and demonstrate at least one of its concrete aspects of identity to talk about with knowledge. If you do not agree with this, then you are agnostic, not atheist. Even if you think there is a very very very small chance of God existing, it is greater than zero and you become a minitheist, or barelytheist or nanotheist or infinitesmotheist, but not a nontheist.

Permalink Reply by MCT on March 17, 2011 at 1:40pm

Thiest- One who believes in God.

Athiest- One who does not believe in God. I actually prefer 'one who knows there is no God'.

Theology- The study of the nature of God and religious truth (it's hard to even write).

Atheological- Well, you get the point.

 

In what universe does the impossible have even a small chance to exist?

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Permalink Reply by Willa Cartwright on March 18, 2011 at 6:30pm

Atheism is a statement about belief.

 

Agnosticism is a statement about knowledge.

 

They are related to each in much the same way as knowledge and belief are but knowledge is not belief, nor is vice versa.

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Permalink Reply by Vince Watkins on March 19, 2011 at 10:21am

An interesting and important semantic distinction. Thank you.

Of course, it is possible to at least claim belief without knowledge. And obviously possible to at least claim to reject belief, or even lack the capacity to process the knowledge that would warrant rational belief, even when it is present.

In some cases, even when data is available to afford 100% certainty, there are those who are so wed to not permitting/admitting 100% certainty in their minds that they are actually close-minded to the idea that it is possible to be 100% certain.

You can recognize such people when they say that they believe there is a possibility (small as it might be) that a self-contradictory concept can exist in reality... that there is a small possibility that 2+2 does not equal 4... or that it not only equals 4, but simultaneously does not equal 4.

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