I wanted to put this question out there to see how strongly everyone feels on this subject. Being that most of us trust in scientific fact and reasoning, I was wondering if everyone is absolutely, undeniably, 100% sure that a god doesn't exist.  I personally take into account that there is no proof of any cosmic creator so therefore I am about 99.9999% sure that there is no god. However we all agree that science is an ever evolving field and I don't think that there will ever be any proof to support the existence of a supreme being, but I can't be 100% sure until there is concrete proof against one. I would like to know what all of your thoughts on this.  

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but it's real in the sense of there actually existing a one eyed green monster..

But it isn't real... 


I had to fix that error. 

Physical implies having being made of something.

But that does not imply the converse.  The converse is that being "made of something" implies being a material object - which is what you think. 

It seems you are not a Platonist.  But Platonists exist :)

Here's an article on mathematical Platonism.

Luara,

Independent of us? Are we not all a part of existence itself? What exactly is independent, mathematically or otherwise of existence?  We are all subsets of existence itself, and products of. We are all made of what existence itself is made of.. Existence is a Universal Set of All Sets. Hence could you explain for me something in which is separate from Existence? 

 


This is irrelevant if you think this deals with Plato or not, as I am going by the actual definitions of the words being used and what they actually mean.

Platonism is the idea that abstractions exist.  If you wish to understand the idea of what it means for God to "exist", you need to understand the philosophy around the concept of existence.  You are trying to walk in deep waters, as if they were a shallow stream.

For example, the article on mathematical Platonism that I linked to, mentions "epistemological access" involved in something "existing". 

If the existence of something is undecidable by us, can it actually exist? 

That would make existence a relative concept.  For example, another universe would be physical and real to the beings who inhabit that universe.  But it would be unknowable to us.  For us, it would not exist.  For the beings in that universe, it would exist. 

The existence of God is in that category, so far as I can tell.  Nobody can prove if there is or isn't a God.

So perhaps you could say that God doesn't exist so far as we're concerned. 

A lot of people want to trivialize and dismiss philosophical questions - like the meaning of something "existing".  But they are real and difficult questions. 

At that point you are dealing with appeals to ignorance.. The point I made regarding materiality and immateriality is a dichotomy just as is Existence vs Non-existence. This is irrelevant to Plato, or mathematical abstractions as either is subject to these dichotomies. You can however argue the possibility of X being existent even if we can't decide or verify it.. However again, there is limits to that such as immateriality to which is literally impossible by definition. Hence self-refutations do not require further contemplation as they are false by their very premises.. As in self refuted..

To the point, there can only ever be a physical existence simply because nothing cannot by definition be an existing person, place, object, substance, or thing. It's a descriptive word that at best is a place card for the absences of something else in which you are inferring to.. Such as

:There is nothing in my coffee cup.

Well, nothing is a place card for the coffee that is not in the cup while you can never actually or literally have nothing in the cup. Proper use of terms is important when addressing such issues so one does not confuse themselves.. Thus abstractions separate from us, if existent, will be relative within the Universal Set (Existence).. Likewise there maybe hundreds or billions of Universes within Existence relative to us, but they would all be subsets of Existence as Existence is the totality of all that exists by definition to which is the totality of "Where"... Essentially there isn't any place of where outside of existence, or anything else for that matter. This is why I am asking you to clarify by what you mean in terms of "separate from us".. Even Platos Mathematics is subject to this issue, and the specific dichotomies outlined. 

So you can contemplate whether abstractions exist beyond the concept or idea, but I would argue one must show they do to be taken seriously in my opinion. It's fun to fantasize, or come up with ideas ect, but unfortunately for some, they end up as self-refutations or logical fallacies by their own premises while others lay open for debate. And unfortunately immateriality is a self-refuting concept by definition. 

So for something to Exist, it must be in and of existence as we all are. It must be made of what existence is made of, and be subject to the rules (whatever those are) of existence. 

In any case, what I was talking about was the meaning of "existence" in the question "does God exist?" 

What do we mean by God "existing"?

I am not talking about the obvious physical existence of the "God-concept" in someone's brain.  That is an atheistic concept of "God". 

But rather, what is meant by God "existing" when religious people claim that God exists? 

The God that exists according to religious people, has to interact with the world in some way.  Either by creating the world, or by interacting with religious people.

The religious person's "God" is claimed to be perceived by them, although perhaps only indirectly. 

So it's claimed that human beings possess a "spiritual sense" that enables them to perceive a spiritual reality - similarly to how our regular senses perceive physical reality. 

This is what is meant by the claim that God "exists". 

Religious people may not feel they're directly perceiving God - but rather, just perceiving the effects that God has on the world. 

See my post above.. Religious people see that as immateriality, this to which is a self-refuting concept. Hence their idea of GOD would be impossible and thus a logical fallacy.. Regardless, you can ask them to describe this "spiritual reality" without physical descriptors such as color, dimensional values, or how they interact ect.. You will quickly learn that they are constructs, like a one eye green monster, from the physical reality in abstract. Can they describe or express anything without physically doing so, or in a realm made of nothing as they would suggest.  It is quite clear to me that such concepts are entirely of their own imagination or concepts they have chosen to believe based on a number of factors including being raised and taught to.. Most of which is purely blind faith. It's really a self delusion to which they attribute things to as it is often the case. One example is a doctor saving someone's life while the believer in question thanks his or her god, or crediting his or her god vs the actual person who saved their lives. 

Or a more recent example is the woman who ran over a motorcyclist because she believed god told her to let him take the wheel, and then the motorcyclist crediting the very same god for saving his life.. You can only shake your head at this knowing they are both quite delusional.. O.o 



WHOA!!!!!!!!      You sound  like  a cult follower  to me Luara.......That is so  out there.......I don't  think  any Atheist  here  could  relate to what you are saying.....It  is  all an illusion  Luara  .....You sound  like someone  on an  LSD  trip...whose brain  is  baked........

There is no need for personal attacks.. We can respect each other and address the merits of an argument without doing so. :/  I see no need to attack her personally, or make it personal. This doesn't add any value or encourage meaningful discourse. :/

Hey  I was just   expressing  myself....Chill Out  man....

I can explain what you mean. But first, of course there is no god.

Words are just groups of sound waves or arrangements of phonemes which are symbols or labels for certain concepts or ideas of classes of things. (And different cultures or languages pick and choose which ideas or things will get labels and which things will be unimportant and have to be described with whole sentences or paragraphs.)

In an argument it helps to define the major concepts at the beginning. So let us take a typical definition of god: an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-present, all good, anthropomorphic entity. Now suppose you pick a different idea but call it by the label god. For example we could decide that everything we now call "chairs" will now be called "gods". The concept or idea does not change, just the label changes. So suppose that you use "god" as a label for the chemical reactions and electric signals in people's brains which corresponds to people's ideas of god or people's insistence that there is a god(s). Thus the original definition god (an omni-potent, omni-present, omniscient, omni-benevolent anthropomorphic entity which makes decisions and probably is supposed to not be part of any person's brain or body) still does not exist, but claiming that god exists, now using "god" as a label for ideas of god, does something.

I am not quite sure what this kind of argument does. Does it make the person who makes this argument seem like a closeted theist? Does it make you feel less guilty or less antagonistic than if you just say you are an atheist? This is like claiming that the character Tom Sawyer exists because you are now using "Tom Sawyer" as a label for the atoms in your brain that correspond to the idea of the character Tom Sawyer.

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