Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Sansdeity on January 23, 2012 at 2:09pm

lol oh you know how to push my buttons! ;)

Is there something wrong with my answers?

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Permalink Reply by Tom Sarbeck on January 23, 2012 at 2:24pm

I'll parse that paragraph and let you know.

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Permalink Reply by Sansdeity on January 23, 2012 at 2:50pm

lol alright point taken. I'll try to clarify.

Is there empirical evidence for either certainty or uncertainty?

I would say yes. The statement, "I am certain I will die." is based on empirical evidence. Everyone that has ever lived has died which is a good data sample to base this certainty on.

The statement, "I am uncertain when I will die." is also based on empirical evidence. It posits that I aleady know I will die but am not sure when that will be. Since humans cannot see the future, this is a rational statement.

If we speak in context of the certainty/uncertainty of a god(s):

• I'm certain there is no empirical evidence for the existence of any gods. This could also be abbreviated to: "There is no empirical evidence for the existence of any gods."
• The fact that there is no empirical evidence for the existence of any gods is itself empirical evidence for the non-existence of gods.  

It all goes back to burden of proof. The burden of proof for the existence of gods are on the people claiming that they exist. And since the beginning of humanity, the only non-subjective proof provided has been books written by humans about these creatures. And as we all can affirm, books are not empirical evidence of the existence of supernatural beings.

Was going to alter/expound more but I have to head home. Will check back later tonigt. Cheers!

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Permalink Reply by Tom Sarbeck on January 23, 2012 at 11:15pm

Sansdiety, my mischief making may have splashed stuff on me. While I too am certain I will die and uncertain when, my attempts to design an experiment that will prove the existence of certainty or uncertainty have so far failed.

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In your second point ("The fact that...."), you fell into a trap the supporters of Intelligent Design creationism fall into when they are in court. They try to prove their case by saying the lack of evidence [of an event in evolution] is evidence of a lack [of that event]. The attorneys for evolution take them apart.

- - -

I regularly tell believers they have an awesome burden of proof, and that books written centuries ago by people who knew less than today's grade school children are not proof.

btw, I like your screen name.

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Permalink Reply by Craigart14 on January 24, 2012 at 10:39am

Books that argue for the existence of gods are definitely subjective.

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Permalink Reply by Glen Rosenberg on January 23, 2012 at 2:31pm

The most sensible answer is by Sansdeity.

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Permalink Reply by Neill Pash on January 25, 2012 at 1:28am

99.99% there is no god, and the other 0.1% is highly skeptical 

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Permalink Reply by Madhukar Kulkarni on February 13, 2012 at 10:37am

Neill Pash

I always fail to undrestand why anybody retains that 0.001% doubt? Why that small doubt can not be answered? I think that those who come so close to total atheism should make a litttle more mental effort and brcome 100% atheiets.

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Permalink Reply by Sansdeity on February 13, 2012 at 11:02am

It's because some atheists are so married to logic that they almost treat it as a religion itself in that it becomes very dogmatic.

Using strict rules of logic, it says no one can be 100% certain of anything. So going by this, some atheists who extoll the virtues of logic, maintain their 99.9% position. For the sole purpose of adhering to the laws of logic.

Where their marriage to logic shows it's cracks is that such a stance creates a slippery slope. If one lives their life in that 99.9% on the basis of not being able to know anything 100%, then they also have to maintain a 99.9% stance to everything: unicorns, leprechauns, cyclops, mermaids, fairies, pixies, zombies, vampires, etc.

However, ask one of these folks if they are 100% sure that unicorns do not exist and they will most likely agree. So how can they maintain 100% certainty for the non-existence of unicorns but not for the existence of gods? The same amount of evidence exists for both: books written about them.

And what's interesting is that this position usually comes up as a result of being asked by a theist. So these atheists will claim a 99.9% stance yet the theists asking these questions often hold a 100% certainty stance about the non-existence of every other god but their own. In an effort to be in such accordance with the rules of logic, the theists certainity goes unchallenged.

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Permalink Reply by Madhukar Kulkarni on February 13, 2012 at 11:28am

Sansdeity

Your answers are always admirable for their logic. This one is no exception. I wish that those who are willing to do away with their uncertainity should take your advise and end it once and for all.

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Permalink Reply by David W on February 13, 2012 at 12:16pm

I do not believe in a creator of any kind. I'll refer to this creator as "god."

My problem with 100%... (maybe just semantics?)

Something DOES prevent me from saying "I am 100% certain that there is no god." I think it has to do with measuring knowledge or feelings and beliefs using fractions. Theists claim to know, with 100% certainty, that there is a god.

I see it as either you believe or you don't believe. I just don't see how one can then apply a percentage to quantify their strength in their belief. I can't say that I am 99.9% certain there is no god anymore that I can say I am 100% certain. 

Theists suggest there is a god.

I don't believe there is a god. I just typed 100% of the letters in that sentence.

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Permalink Reply by Joan Denoo on February 13, 2012 at 1:01pm

David, I had similar doubts until I realized that many of the problems we face originate in religious teachings, i.e. wife and child abuse, wars, racism, homophobia, etc.
I decided if I want to confront these challenges, I have to begin where the beliefs originate ... religion.
Sure, there may be a god who does not reveal him/herself to me; So? I see no evidence of existence of god except what religious people tell me.
The next question I have is can I be moral without god? The answer is a profound YES! Can I have compassion? YES! Can I have a sense of wonder? YES!
Therefore, what is the need of god?

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

alexsauer  Epicurus quote

 

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