We can just take a moment to address the Fount of Knowledge:
"The uncreate, the unoriginate, the immortal, the bound- less, the eternal, the immaterial, the good, the creative, the just, the enlightening, the unchangeable, the passionless, the uncircumscribed, the uncontained, the unlimited, the indefi- nable, the invisible, the inconceivable, the wanting nothing, the having absolute power and authority, the life-giving, the almighty, the infinitely powerful, the sanctifying and com- municating, the containing and sustaining all things, and the providing for all all these and the like He possesses by His nature. They are not received from any other source; on the contrary, it is His nature that communicates all good to His own creatures in accordance with the capacity of each."
"And yet again, there is His knowing of all things by a simple act of knowing. And there is His distinctly seeing with His divine, all-seeing, and immaterial eye all things at once"
Thus it can be said that such an argument self-collapses in every area of the supposed attributes given when anyone of them is taken out of the equation by another conflicting attribute, or thing (such as ourselves). Especially in the case or state of absolute Omniscience. So here is what it boils down to under information theory:
* I = reference to all the information that gives I an Identity. It's the entire essences of "I am".
So let's see where this entire GOD concept completely falls apart. Especially when concerning "Omniscience".
1) A boundless GOD? Can a boundless GOD be boundless if you are to claim all of us to be separate individuals? What boundaries lie between GOD being me, and not being me?
2) If he is uncontained then what separates him from me?
3) If he's without limits, what limits define GOD apart from who I am?..
4) If he is omnipresent, where do I exist?
5) If he contains and sustains all things, would he not be existence itself? Thus am I, and everyone else here not the conscious representations of god, or GOD himself?
6) If he is Omniscient and knows infinitely everything to which is knowable, would he not know me in every infinitely knowable way to where he himself would literally be I, me, or who I am in every infinitely knowable way?
7) If he is immaterial, would he not be made of nothing? Thus how does nothing exist as a person, place, or thing? How does nothing as a substance be the property value of something? How does nothing contain and sustain informational value.
So for you theists out there, I = all the information that gives I an identity. The funny part about this is that I is a pseudo conscious fallacy since there is no I in team here. Hence it takes a lot more than a single bit or piece of information to support a conscious state, or much less support the simple instinctual awareness level of a common cockroach. Hence, a
conscious state requires far more cause to exist that a simple house plant, or the rock in your back yard.
So as far as first Cause goes.. Well its not anything with a consciousness ;) It's simply impossible. A conscious entity can not design and create that which itself is slave to require in order to exist, function, think, or require to even know that itself exists.
Existence is seen as a phenomenal reality of physical self-oscillating, and self-organizing energy that makes you, me, the stars, matter, anything with mass possible. It's a Universal Set of all Sets that solves infinite regress.
Thus since energy and information are two sides of the same coin as both substance and value. Energy is the carrier and capacity of information. And so a consciousness is like the image on your computer monitor, it's an emergent property due to the processing of information. If I turn the computer off, or should the computer break.., The image will simply cease to display. Same concept applies to when you die, or when your brain dies. The conscious state simply turns off, or ceases to display. It's that simple to understand in terms of information theory.
Hence, Know your ABC's!
This is unarguable:
Energy =/= information =/= cause
This is unarguable:
A: There can be no choice, or decision made without information
B: There can be no consciousness or awareness without information
C: One can not have knowledge without information
D: One can not do anything without information
E: One can not exist without informational value
F: One can not think without information
G: One can not even know one's self exists without information
H: One can not reply, respond, or react without information
I: One can not convey, send, or express a message without information
J: There can be no morals, ethics, or laws without information
K: One can not have or express emotions, or feelings without information
L: One can not have experiences, or experience anything at all without information
M: One can not have a place to exist in order to be existent without information
N: One can not Create, or Design anything without information
O: One can not have the ability to process things without information
P: Intelligence can not exist without information to apply
Q: No system, or process can exist without information
R: Cause and effect can not exist without information
S: Logic can not exist without information
T: Reason can not exist or things can not have a reason / purpose without information
U: There can be no meaning without information
V: There can be no value without information
W: There can be no capacity without informational value
Y: There can be no complexity without informational structure
Z: There can be no "I" without the information that gives I an Identity.
Atheists won the debate before theists could ever post their first words on the subject.
Man I dig science! It is what basically allows all of us to rant and rave right now on the internet via a smart phone or laptop! How cool is that?
Oh, by the way... I am not actually 100 percent sure that god does not exist. All that I can say is that there is a mountain of evidence that does not support his existence and there is no evidence to support his existence. Cheers.
Debating the existence (or non-existence) of something for which there is not one particle of verifiable evidence is fun...for a while. But eventually, it's as time-wasting as wearing out the knees saying the rosary or any other chant over and over and over.
I'm in the midst of re-reading The Grass Crown, a novel in a series about the fall of the Roman Republic. I think it's pertinent to what's going on in the USA right now, so...see y'all later!
The only way to knowledge is by the formation and integration of concepts with the use of noncontradiction and causal law. That is it. If you think that there is another way, then that makes you a mystic, my friend.
The scientific method itself is dependent on causal law and noncontradiction. I'd rather not keep reading from you that science cannot prove things that, if possible, would make science impossible.
Whether something is true or not is as it compares to reality. We can test the truth of real representations, but not imaginary contradictory ones.
And your analogy is not valid. Using your hands and a shovel are two very reasonable ways to dig a whole. Knowledge can only be come by through the noncontradictory integration of perceptual evidence. Tack on as many senses as you like, or take a few away, it will still be the same. Identity is inextricably linked to existence and therefore so is causality and noncontradiction. These concepts are fundamental to science. Science is nothing more than the rigorous application of reason and logic in a manner to be standardized so it may be shared, repeated and peer reviewed. Science uses reason and logic; it is incompatible with reason and logic to ask one to use science to evaluate something that, if existed, would falsify the process of verification. The existence of god would negate and invalidate existence itself, identity, reason, logic, noncontradiction, causality and, yes, science. It's just not possible for the impossible to be. That's how come we call that shit impossible.
Would you agree that the statement "Belief is what you properly do when there isn't enough information yet." is the same as saying "Belief is what you properly do when there isn't enough evidence yet."
If you agree, then we are on the same page, if you do not agree, then I purpose that we are at a point where we just have to agree to disagree.
Belief (whether valid or not) is of the religious realm. What makes a belief valid is evidence. Next week, you will have evidence that you are still alive or not. It becomes valid next week, but it does not follow that it is valid now, because without evidence you cannot know whether something is valid or not. If I believe that there are tooth fairies in contrast to believing that you or I will be alive next week, the difference is only in the possibility of it becoming true at any given moment. One is not any more valid than the other, since we rely on previous evidences to apply reason to it, and applying reason, does not prove that something is true.
I know that 2+2=4 as close to certain as I can be. I believe that 2+2=4 with certainty, because belief requires no evidence. Anything not requiring evidence is in the realm of belief or disbelief, and that I contend is a religious endeavour.
No, next week it will be knowledge. This week it is a valid belief. It would be an invalid belief if I were to say that next week I will bench press 600 pounds or be omniscient. We have plenty of evidence that god is impossible. It is called reason and logic. The jury has been out for a very long time on this and mystics and skeptics alike are blind to it.
So you have a religious belief that 2+2=4. Brilliant. You really aren't paying attention. 'I belief that I left my hat in my car, but I am not sure' is not at all religious. It is a valid belief. Now, invalid belief, or belief in the absence of evidence or in the presence of contradictory evidence, would be that god, or something only able to be defined irrationally, in a contradictory way, exists or can possibly exist. Once a concept integrates into a knowledge base without contradiction, it is no longer a belief, but knowledge.
You say that you cannot have identity without evidence of identity. True. And since evidence, which depends on an unbroken causal chain and an existent characteristic in this world, of god is literally impossible, since by causal law a thing cannot be both a stone and a leaf, it can never have real identity or exist. Saying that omniscience can exist is the same as saying that it is possible that a rock can be a leaf. And when presented with this, you will say, "Prove a rock cannot also a leaf! Well since you cannot prove that a rock cannot be a leaf, I will uphold the possibility of total nonsense in my brain". I think I am repeatedly proving it to you and you are refusing to accept reason. It is like I am holding up two groups of two things and calling it four and you are saying, "prove it". We do not require anymore proof than the obvious nature of identity and existence. I have, in fact, used evidence of a chair's identity to form the concept (the first thousand chairs I saw were real and had real borders and the concept integrates without any contradiction what-so-ever). There is evidence of causal law all around us. You are saying that I cannot prove that the impossible cannot happen. I don't need to. You do not need scientific proof that the impossible cannot happen. It's impossible!! I know, for certain, that if something exists, it has a particular concrete identity that it is not contradictory to identity and existence. The process of proof, itself depends on causal law and noncontradiction, as does science, and if omniscience or magic could possibly exist, even possibly, it would invalidate science. You Cane, cannot even be certain when you have proof. This really is useless. You are permanently lost, I'm afraid.
I follow you now. God cannot have identity, because the existence of god contradicts existence itself (what it means to exist). God does not make sense therefore he cannot exist. Am I right in what I have said so far?