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I got this today ( YOUR THOUGHTS)
Miss California Hates Gays Comment Page
Hi, you wrote me a comment on my comment about the Bible being the foundation of the US Constitution. Thank you for being willing to express your own opinion on American history, but that doesn't change the fact that America was founded on Christian principals and values. Calling me illiterate and ignorant is only an ad hominum attack on my character and can not be taken as a valid logical argument. If you question the fact that America was founded by Christians, on Biblical principals, consider for a moment our founding father Benjamin Franklin. Mr. Franklin is well known for his very liberal opinions for his time. At the Constitutional convention, Mr. Franklin was radical in his "Deistic" beliefs. But consider his words, delivered Thursday, June 28, 1787, to the convention in Philadelphia,
"Mr. President:
The small progress we have made after 4 or five weeks close attendance & continual reasonings with each other -- our different sentiments on almost every question, several of the last producing as many noes as ays, is methinks a melancholy proof of the imperfection of the Human Understanding. We indeed seem to feel our own wont of political wisdom, since we have been running about in search of it. We have gone back to ancient history for models of government, and examined the different forms of those Republics which having been formed with the seeds of their own dissolution now no longer exist. And we have viewed Modern States all round Europe, but find none of their Constitutions suitable to our circumstances.
In this situation of this Assembly groping as it were in the dark to find political truth, and scarce able to distinguish it when to us, how has it happened, Sir, that we have not hitherto once thought of humbly applying to the Father of lights to illuminate our understandings? In the beginning of the contest with G. Britain, when we were sensible of danger we had daily prayer in this room for the Divine Protection. -- Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered. All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of a Superintending providence in our favor. To that kind providence we owe this happy opportunity of consulting in peace on the means of establishing our future national felicity. And have we now forgotten that powerful friend? or do we imagine that we no longer need His assistance.
I have lived, Sir, a long time and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth -- that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings that "except the Lord build they labor in vain that build it." I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our little partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall be become a reproach and a bye word down to future age. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing Governments by Human Wisdom, and leave it to chance, war, and conquest.
I therefore beg leave to move -- that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the Clergy of this City be requested to officiate in that service."
Are these the words of a man with no convictions, faith, or Spiritual insight? Consider also our Declaration of Independence, "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are CREATED equal, and endowed by their CREATOR with certain inalienable rights, among them being the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." The idea of a creator was so ingrained in our Founding Fathers that they had no hesitation whatsoever in appealing to His authority on behalf of their nation. Finally, if you still doubt that America was founded by Christians, visit our nation's capital in Washington DC. If you visit the Rotunda, in the Capital building, and look carefully at the paintings, you will see that the vast majority of them are religious. America was founded by Christians, on the foundation of Biblical principals, and your opinion does not change that. You can have your own opinion on God, Christ, and America, but that does not change the historical facts that America was conceived by men who believed in a powerful creator who cared for them.
Thank you for being patient and taking the time to read this. Please write me with what you think. I would enjoy the chance to write more with you.
margiabell
PLEASE TELL ME YOUR RESPONSES TO THIS NONSENSE
Hi, you wrote me a comment on my comment about the Bible being the foundation of the US Constitution. Thank you for being willing to express your own opinion on American history, but that doesn't change the fact that America was founded on Christian principals and values. Calling me illiterate and ignorant is only an ad hominum attack on my character and can not be taken as a valid logical argument. If you question the fact that America was founded by Christians, on Biblical principals, consider for a moment our founding father Benjamin Franklin. Mr. Franklin is well known for his very liberal opinions for his time. At the Constitutional convention, Mr. Franklin was radical in his "Deistic" beliefs. But consider his words, delivered Thursday, June 28, 1787, to the convention in Philadelphia,
"Mr. President:
The small progress we have made after 4 or five weeks close attendance & continual reasonings with each other -- our different sentiments on almost every question, several of the last producing as many noes as ays, is methinks a melancholy proof of the imperfection of the Human Understanding. We indeed seem to feel our own wont of political wisdom, since we have been running about in search of it. We have gone back to ancient history for models of government, and examined the different forms of those Republics which having been formed with the seeds of their own dissolution now no longer exist. And we have viewed Modern States all round Europe, but find none of their Constitutions suitable to our circumstances.
In this situation of this Assembly groping as it were in the dark to find political truth, and scarce able to distinguish it when to us, how has it happened, Sir, that we have not hitherto once thought of humbly applying to the Father of lights to illuminate our understandings? In the beginning of the contest with G. Britain, when we were sensible of danger we had daily prayer in this room for the Divine Protection. -- Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered. All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of a Superintending providence in our favor. To that kind providence we owe this happy opportunity of consulting in peace on the means of establishing our future national felicity. And have we now forgotten that powerful friend? or do we imagine that we no longer need His assistance.
I have lived, Sir, a long time and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth -- that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings that "except the Lord build they labor in vain that build it." I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our little partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall be become a reproach and a bye word down to future age. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing Governments by Human Wisdom, and leave it to chance, war, and conquest.
I therefore beg leave to move -- that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the Clergy of this City be requested to officiate in that service."
Are these the words of a man with no convictions, faith, or Spiritual insight? Consider also our Declaration of Independence, "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are CREATED equal, and endowed by their CREATOR with certain inalienable rights, among them being the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." The idea of a creator was so ingrained in our Founding Fathers that they had no hesitation whatsoever in appealing to His authority on behalf of their nation. Finally, if you still doubt that America was founded by Christians, visit our nation's capital in Washington DC. If you visit the Rotunda, in the Capital building, and look carefully at the paintings, you will see that the vast majority of them are religious. America was founded by Christians, on the foundation of Biblical principals, and your opinion does not change that. You can have your own opinion on God, Christ, and America, but that does not change the historical facts that America was conceived by men who believed in a powerful creator who cared for them.
Thank you for being patient and taking the time to read this. Please write me with what you think. I would enjoy the chance to write more with you.
margiabell
PLEASE TELL ME YOUR RESPONSES TO THIS NONSENSE
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by It's just Matt on -
Ask her what she is smoking so you never take it yourself...
Benjamin Franklin also stated,"Lighthouses are more useful than churches."
Thomas Jefferson stated,"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology," and "I have no fear that the result of our experiment will be that men may be trusted to govern themselves without a master."
I could easily imply that Jefferson and Franklin were Atheists using only those quotes, but this does not make it true. Studying .0000000001% of history and claiming, "See,there it is, I told you I was right." Does make you sound and look like an idiot. Do more research,read more unbiased books, and come back when you have a better sense of the totality of history.
Look up the Treaty of Tripoli for starters, and please give yourself a break and read the ENTIRE Constitution,Bill of Rights, and Deceleration of Independence and see what is written.
Oh, and in case you forgot, the U.S.A. was partly founded to ESCAPE religious dogma...
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Permalink Reply by Eli on -
It seems that theists and atheists alike can cherry-pick speeches and quotes from the founding fathers to support deist/atheist/theist arguments but the fact is the personal faith of the founders are irrelevant, the establishment clause is laid out quite clearly in the first amendment to the Constitution.
There is only ONE sane way to accommodate the provisions of the first amendment and that is through completely secular government, making no religious considerations to matters of legislation. The only other alternative would be to give equal accommodations to ALL faiths, a position which is a practical impossibility given the diverse make-up of the united states and open to ALL kinds of abuses.
So, my response to anyone who brings up personal beliefs of the founders, or the Declaration of independence is that they are entirely irrelevant, there is only one document which matters to the establishment of laws and rules of governance and that is the Constitution, which allows for NO religious test for public office and establishes that the government can play no favorites when it comes to religious (or irreligious) beliefs.
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Permalink Reply by Фелч Гроган on -
Ask her to explain what "ad hominum" means without looking it up - she can't even spell it. Then ask her if she spits or swallows.
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Permalink Reply by Draccataura on -
Has she never heard of the Treaty of Tripoli?! I quote: "Article 11: As the government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,...".
Thank you for also pointing this out, Just Matt.
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Permalink Reply by Buffy on -
If the Bible was the basis for the US Constitution why is there no mention of God, Jesus or the Bible anywhere in it? I should think that if the Bible/Christianity were the basis of the foundational document of our nation the FF would have seen fit to make some reference to them in it.
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Permalink Reply by dusk on -
to be honest i think too much attention is being given to the LOSER and not enough attention to the winner. i personally think she knew she wouldn't make it and that's why she chose such an answer so she could be talked about after someone else won. her fifteen minutes will be over soon enough. this is my response.
though they are not the words of a man who had no convictions, spiritual insight or faith they are also not the words to use to excuse the denial of a public service to a group of taxpaying american citizens. though america may have been founded by men who were christian at one point the states has no official religion. the constitution gives the american people the freedom of and from religions. if christianity was so important to the founders of this country then it would not have been made secular. please list the biblical principals that this country was founded upon. is it the freedom of speech and religion? freedom of the press? the right to bear arms, make quartering optional, or not have to self incriminate in a court of law? i'd like to know one amendment that comes from the bible.
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Permalink Reply by Rev Hellbound Alleee on -
Wow. She found one "founding father" speech that was pro-prayer. I don't suppose she would be willing to read anything by Thomas Paine, mainly "The Age of Reason?" Isn't Thomas Paine a founding father? Or how about Jefferson or Madison? Does she know the things they said about Christianity?
Or what of the fact that the word God is not mentioned in the constitution?
Of course, we know that the land we live on is NOT EUROPEAN. The land was already inhabited, and the "original religions" (if we could say anything about it) was NOT CHRISTIAN. I suppose you could say stealing land away from people and forcing them into exile, or killing them is a "Christian Principle." This Nation was founded illegitimately, by violence, trickery and force.
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Permalink Reply by David S on -
Arguments about what the founding fathers thought can go on forever. The final demonstration of what they thought, or agreed to, is the Constitution. Whatever else any given individual may have been thinking at one time or another, The Constitution expresses what they finally thought. And, The Constitution clearly establishes a secular state.
The most any christian can claim is that a bunch of christians got together and deliberately, consciously, intentionally established a secular nation.
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Permalink Reply by River Otter on -
I just found something in Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin
In 1790, just about a month before he died, Franklin wrote the following in a letter to Ezra Stiles, president of Yale University, who had asked him his views on religion:
“ As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and I think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble....[
Tell your debator to stick that in their pipe and smoke it.
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Permalink Reply by Lee Vegas on -
Simple. Amendment One and commandment one are in direct contradiction.
LV
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Permalink Reply by Dre Smith on -
GOT A 2ND RESPONSE TO THIS TODAY:
Re: Re: Miss California Hates Gays Comment Page Re: Re: Miss California Hates Gays Comment
I am so sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you. My internet keeps crashing. Please forgive me for being brief here. Your accusation about not having all the facts has hit me hard, so I am going to do some serious research on the subject and see what I turn up. One thing I would like to say, quickly, is that you did seem to misread my point. My point was not that America was a nation founded by Christians for Christians only, or that Christianity should be a national religion; to say that would merely discredit the work of our founders. Not only that, but it would also show my lack of knowledge concerning the Christian faith. Christianity cannot be a state religion because it is a faith based not on action or speech, but on a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Ephesians 2:8-9 says, "By grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is a gift of God, not of works, that no man should boast." If Christianity is the enforced religion of our nation, then it is a religion of works and the government the provider of salvation, not Christ.
Before I go, I wanted to ask you a more personal question. If you don't want to answer, that is fine, and I will write again in a few days with what I discover in my research. My question is why do you hate God so much? When I checked out your homepage, you seemed very angry at God. If this question is to personal, then please don't feel that you have to answer it. I will not look down on you, or accuse you of trying to dodge my questions.
Finally, please realize that I am praying for you. I don't know where you stand on the issue of prayer, but in my experience, prayer can make a huge difference in lives. If you ever want me to pray for something specifically, please feel free to write me. I would love to be able to pray for your specific needs and concerns.
Thanks for your patience regarding my response, and I hope to speak with you again soon.
Margiabell
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