Dogly- In regard to the comment about drinking milk of other species being unnatural, I call 'BullShit'. Humans are a product of natural evolution, and though we have used naturally occurring elements to make some which aren't (Einsteinium), until we do something that violates the laws of physics, nothing we've done can be said to be unnatural. Same thing with people whining about how unnatural nuclear energy is (BTW, if you believe that then stop using anything that is connected whatsoever to the output of the Sun. For the people whining about rights of all living things, let's hear you say that the next time you get a bacterial infection. After all, they're just as alive as you are, plus there are more of them, so you're rights just became the minority. That's different though, isn't it?). Just because you find something personally distasteful does not make it unnatural!
Holy Hell... I've been a vegetarian for over 17 years and people like you are almost enough to make me embarrassed to admit it. At least it's fun to watch Vegan's heads explode when someone in leather orders a fully vegetarian meal. Seems that most of them just can't process the idea (which at least shuts them up long enough for me to finish eating). Can't you at least come up with some new arguments that haven't been shot down time and time again? It's like debating creationists...
Agreed that abuse is something that needs to be stopped, but that applies to all animals- humans included. This isn't directed at you Fred, there are just a lot of things in this discussion that get me riled, so using this as a jumping off point. No offense intended. I just get aggravated when some people (such as Dogly) make a big point of how all living things should be equal, so people shouldn't use any animal products whatsoever. If all animals are equal, then humans (as animals) have the same right to use other animals for food, clothing, playthings, etc that other animals (such as army ants, sharks, and cats) have. People like that want to take some points of the argument that they're making, but ignore basic things about the rest of it, which is where I can't be silent any longer. If all animals are equal, then we are no more at fault for anything we do than is a mosquito that spreads malaria or a housefly which transfers bacteria from some droppings it was previously at to the apple pie it visited next. If all animals are indeed equal, then all laws should apply equally across the board and people should be allowed to do anything that animals do (unless we're going to start jailing animals or making them wear clothes and follow the rest of the laws that apply to humans). Even now, someone is probably getting ready to say that we're different because our thought patterns are more complex (rather than being mostly/ fully instinct based in our reactions), but that would just be making the point that we're not the same as other animals- not necessarily invalidating equality, but making it a lot tougher to prove. And just what are the criteria that everything is supposedly equal in? I sure the hell wouldn't want to get into a diving competition with a whale, a 'spot the rabbit' contest with an eagle, or a poop throwing contest with a creationist (or monkey for that matter). I'd love to be able to see in infrared or ultraviolet as some insects can. Everything has different abilities, and started from the same life base 4 billion or so years ago, but not everything is equal. As far as stopping the abuses, I don't think that's going to get anywhere until people stop abusing each other. When idiots stop chopping off hands or issuing death threats because of cartoons or word problems, jackasses stop protesting funerals, and being different isn't treated as a criminal offense, then we might be able to do something about the way people treat animals. Call me a speciesist if you want, but I think we need to work on how we treat each other as a first priority.
Agreed that abuse is something that needs to be stopped, but that applies to all animals- humans included.
Jeremy Todd Brashear i found i agee with most everything you wrote in both your posts. Dogly mentions us humans have the ability to think differently than other animals,and so feels that disolves our right to live like other animals such as lions and tigers or sharks etc that just munch on whatever they feel like.
But in my opinion humans already do live differntly and have started to try and make good use of our depth of thought.For instance it is humans that step in to try and stop the total extinction of some species,where other animals dont bother.
Im not suggesting humans cant still try to do better than we do at present,im not a big meat eater myself and dislike the needless ill treatment of animals.And like Fred i like to see animals treated with some kindness,and think humans should keep working towards causing animals the least pain possible.
But as you kind of pointed out Jeremy even bacteria is a type of life form.As are flys ants wasps and much else.What does Dogly suggest,if a wasp nest decides my house looks like a nice dry place to live,i should move out ?.
Dogly suggests we should all become vegetarian,yet to do so forgets we humans will then still need to kill and destroy many more insects and birds that eat vegetables than we do today.What does Dogly really believe insects and birds mind being hurt and killed, any less than cows,sheep or beef do?....Not likely ...What happened is Dogly has become closer to befriending cows sheep and beef ,than insects and birds.
I agree humans need to learn how to cause these animals in our food chain the lessor amount of pain possible ,that in itself is something most other preditors dont bother with doing.But becoming a type of fundamentalist about it,can cause more new problems than it cures.
For instance here in NZ we now have a possum problem ,possums that were once imported from Australia, now plague NZ killing tonnes of trees every night because they prefer to feed on the young shoots ,and have also even been photographed eating young birds and birds eggs out of nests.
There was once a good trade for possum fur which meant fur hunters bothered to go hunting possum to harvest their skins..But the save the animal fundamentalists many of them townys that all to often dont really have much of a clue about many of these matters ,started up the wanky anti furskin brigade .Which basically disposed of ALL furskin markets ,meaning now NZ needs to apply more TN80 poison to try and help control the possum problem.
Now im all for protection of animals and stopping extinction of animals hunted for their skins ....But this doesnt mean all hunting for furskin is nessarily always such a bad thing.
Same with hunting of animals for trophy.Often ignorant towny folks dont do enough research !! to find out that there is actually places in this world where wildlife has become more protected from total extinction ,due to the opening up of game parks that breed and run animals for trophy hunting.Many of these places have stopped crop farming and let the natural fauna regenerate so they can breed and run wildlife .Yes they make money from it ,but this also allows them to employ people to protect these animals from total extinction as well as supply jobs which in turn provides other ways for people to feed their families.People who previously hunted bush meat to try and feed their starving families,whether it meant total extinction of these wild animals or not.
Yes humans should learn new things and try and change and do things better ....But fundamentalist utter stupidity and great ignorance is not going to be very helpful in the long run.
And that is why I ensure my meat is humanely killed. In fact my meat gets a quick and painless death, something that is denied to humans largely because of excuses like "humanity" and "humaneness" and the endless cavalcade of buffoons that know what's best for other people, kind of like you do. But you don't think about that do you?
How far down the phylogenetic order does that "We" extended?
Pain, in large part, is mental perception and there is an enormous range in pain perception across the species' - even within species. To say we are equal is hyperbole
I wonder if Dogly will feel the abuse of antibiotics leading to the death of billions of innocent bacteria is also an immoral act. Is a complex nervous system a requirement to discriminate between organisms you can kill and organisms you shouldn't even get close to unless you don't want to hear the end of it? Where do you draw the line and on which side of it do insects stand?
We can legally kill another in self defense. That is where I draw the line. if a parasite is trying to drink my blood, or kill me, I will defend myself with anti-biotics, bed bug spray, etc. Otherwise, I leave insects in peace.