The Dawkins scale:

I am a 6 but for the Abrahamic god I am a 7,

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I assume that makes you a six on leprechauns, unicorns, and the theory that the moon has a core made of molten velveeta?

No, I'm really a 7 but you cannot prove or disporve god in any way. The burden of "dis-proof" is upon YOU. Nessie and the unicorns could exist, but I'm 99.9 % believing that they do not.

You make it sound like there is nothing imaginable that you are 100% certain does not exist. I see yours and Dawkin's point, but it seems like a frivolous distinction. Saying there's a 0.1% chance that gods exist is like saying there's a 0.1% chance that somewhere there is a new undiscovered primary color that exists.

My point is that you do not want to be in a position of proof when neither you nor the theist has any real proof. There is none either way. Proof and logic should be what drives us. IF there really is a god there is no proof that he ever tried to make himself known, or that he asked mankind to do anything in any way.

The idea is that if I make a claim about something I should have proof of that claim. I'm an ex lay preacher and keep this idea open because it means the theist has to prove to me that there is a god. He simply cannot do it, and the burden of proof is upon him.

You can't prove or disprove leprechauns, pixies or left-handed zindlefingers, either.  My attitude is that if we MUST accept the possibility of the existence of something which, for all intents and purposes, was MADE UP to explain phenomena which at the time man had no explanation for, then you have to go whole hog.  As Jubal Harshaw said in Stranger in a Strange Land, "All names belong in the hat."  We would have to acknowledge the possibility of every stupid deity ever invented, from Amon Ra to Quetzalcoatl to Zeus, and that is simply ridiculous to me.  There is no more evidence that Yahweh exists than there is that Brahma, Vishnu or Shiva do, FULL STOP.

When hard evidence shows up that there is, indeed, some form of deity, then we will KNOW one exists, and belief will be unnecessary.  Until that time, I am an unrepentant 7.

I agree with your point, Loren, but I do believe in Amon Ra. I saw one of his lectures on You Tube just the other day. Oh, that was Aron Ra. Sorry.

[Bonks Michael on da haid!] Wake up, guy!  You ain't had yer coffee yet, HAVE YOU?!?  C'mon, admit it!

Just one up this morning. Gotta get more.

Nurse, start an I/V caffeine here, STAT!

I'll ring in at 6 -- stopping short of 7 because I think that, like gods, absolutes (probably) don't exist in nature.  In other words, I'm sure and confident that there are no "gods"; I don't claim #7 certainty because I think that is an unattainable absolute.  Many theist objections to science, for example, are expressions of discomfort with ambiguity -- that if something isn't 100% certain it's absolutely wrong.  Most arguments for gods boil down to arguments from ignorance -- "I get to this point and can't comprehend further, therefore God".  And so God is a euphemism for ignorance, and ignorance surely does exist (at least as measured as a negative of knowledge).  For some this god is much larger and influential than it is for others.  It would be a mistake to ignore or deny our ignorance, but a far larger mistake to worship it.


Ted, you appear to me to be a man of great intelligence and compassion. Your words, "God is a euphemism for ignorance" say it all for me. As I remember the pain both of my grandmothers and my mother experienced BECAUSE of believing in god and living to meet the demands of the faithful, I realize they paid a terrible price for their beliefs. My mother tried to escape; she divorced my father twice and married him three time.

When I ran away from my husband it was my mother and living grandmother who put up the highest hurdles. When you write, "It would be a mistake to ignore or deny our ignorance, but a far larger mistake to worship it", you miss the point. 

We do not transfer our loyalties of non-belief to a worship of it. We take on the mantle of self-responsibility, self-accountability, and self-respect that will not allow us to kneel before any dogma again. 

Just look at the sky, or into the deepest canyon, or the waters of the Earth and its soils, these are reality. Look at a birth and a death and that is our reality. I watched the crowning moment in the birth of a baby when I did my research in China, and I wept. That precious crown first appearing from the birth canal turned out to be a female and worthy of putting to death. I wept again. That belief was not under the influence of a god, it was under the influence of political reality. 

I am a non-believer, an atheist, a freethinker, a secularist. Saying that, I am filled with wonder of the fact that I exist as a sentient being on a very small planet, in a very small Milky Way, in a universe expanding faster and faster. I weep at the death of those who are hungry, homeless, ignorant, and I rejoice as new life comes into being. I am not without that quality that some call religion. I am full of consciousness. That is good enough for me.

As a non-cognitivist, I'm off the chart completely. My belief is that religious statements such as God exists do not have any intelligible meaning and therefore do not even possess a truth value. That is, they are not even true or false because they fail to make any statement about the state of the world.


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