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Freewill To Debate

I have noticed that most theist that confront me about my beliefs tend to argue that god gave us freewil. I dont think this is a solid arguement because I dont think there is freewill. I think the freewill arguement is weak for many reasons such as

1) It contradicts the term omnipotent.

2) Its questionable as to when would we be given this freewil.
If if is before birth why would a baby choose to be deformed or die at birth? If it was after birth why would people have no choice against a social Identity?

3) God does not seem to have freewill himself. He has to be present all the time with no sleep. He has to know everything. What if god wants a vacation?

I want to know if there are atheist who think mankind has freewill.

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Permalink Reply by OutlawGirl on August 22, 2009 at 6:15pm

I'm confused.... the reason babies can't choose to be deformed is because deformities are determined by genetics and the health of the mother. What you call "free-will" in this sense seems to refer to the ability to influance outcomes based solely on a person's inner desires. And what do you mean by "social identity"? There are several other confusing things about your arguemnt, such as the idea that if God existed he would need sleep (I don't understand the relevence of this point), but...

I believe individuals have freewill because we have the ability to make decisions. However, our freewill is limited by our belief system and biological needs. We can't choose to stop eating or we'll die. Of course, if the goal is to die by starvation, then I suppose that is freewill. In fact we're the only species on the planet that can choose to end it's own life. If that's not freewill I don't know what is. What I'm saying is this: every individual possesses freewill, although there are some situations where an individual's freewill may be suspended for survival needs or the preservation of personal beliefs.

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Permalink Reply by RealType on August 22, 2009 at 6:34pm

Genetics contradicts the freewill arguement. Because of god's powers he has no true freewill. Technically he has to always be awake. You have no choice when it comes to stereotypes.

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Permalink Reply by OutlawGirl on August 22, 2009 at 6:49pm

Well I agree with you in that the Christian god has no freewill. Being omniscent means he can't have freewill because he always knows what he's going to do next, way ahead of time.

I've heard the freewill arguement before, but never phrased quite like this. When Christian's try to argue that god gave them freewill they usually do it in response to the question of why god allows evil. They say, "God doesn't allow evil. God gave man freewill and man chooses to do evil!" Of course, if god was omnipotent, he should have known man would choose evil long before he gave man freewill, so in this sense god is knowingly commiting an evil act. God knew, from the beginning, that Adam would eat from the tree of knowelege, and yet he allowed this to happen and then punished him for it. The creation account in Genesis is complete insanity!

The thing is, I don't think I've ever heard a Christian argue that god has freewill. They usually say something like all knowing, all loving (bullshit), merciful (bullshit). Either way, the Christian god is complete nonsense.

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Permalink Reply by RealType on August 22, 2009 at 7:31pm

Christians dont question god so they really god so they wont argue about his freewill. Come to think about it I will use that arguement the next time I debate a theis.

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Permalink Reply by Jo Jerome on August 23, 2009 at 5:15pm

Freewill? Yes. But does that mean control over everything? Not in the slightest. "You can be anything you want to be" is the great lie we are told as children. Aside from limitations of genetic capability, there is the 'freewill' of other people. E.g.; if you are a 12 year old girl in Afghanistan you are not likely to get to go to college no matter how much you 'choose' that path for yourself (if you are even aware such a choice is possible). Yes, I can choose which direction to take a step, but there are 6 1/2 billion other people getting in my way.

I too have issues with the freewill argument for many of the same reasons you do. E.g.; If I am a parent I give my child a certain amount of freewill. But if that child is about to be raped, tortured and murdered and I can stop that from happening with a snap of my godly fingers, I'm going to do that. If I don't, and I try to argue, "Hey, she had freewill" I'm pretty sure I won't be let off the ethical hook for doing nothing to stop the rape/torture/murder of my child.

So whenever we say, "Ooh, God saved her life!" We are axiomatically saying, "But God chose to let everyone else on the train die a horrible and painful death."

Some benevolent being.

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Permalink Reply by Jo Jerome on August 23, 2009 at 11:26pm

Excellent point June - and much more succinct than I would have ever put it.

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Permalink Reply by R. Daneel Olivaw on August 24, 2009 at 12:21am

The thing with free will is that the christian perspective of free will is better defined has "contra-causal free will". That implies a supernatural "I" that is not constrain by cause-and-effect and can act by passing that process. True free will is better called "freedom" and it means that every person as an active agent makes desitions without external coercion.

As for the free will that god gave us:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUtSM2oVy_E