"I may well be wrong, but I have it in my head anyway, that what we are doing is more miscomunicating rather than disagreeing, except that I am not equating an ability to predict the outcome w it being determined by its causes, and I think you are."
If this is to me, let me mention that nowhere do I mention prediction. Predetermination is in reference to deciding an outcome, not guessing it. It also carries with it implications of consciousness (the ability to decide) and force (the ability to effect), and while it may seem like splitting hairs [which I won't technically argue with] it is still important to understand. Communication is by far the greatest tool humanity has, and yet is in many ways still very rudimentary. This conversation is just evidence of that.
So while I'm not trying to perpetuate an admitted misunderstanding, there really is yet another miscommunication~ prediction and determination are in no way related, by definition.
Honestly, I think the jury was out and is now back, ruling that predetermination is, by definition alone, not possible. If that definition was changed, or had stipulations added, then... Well, we would take it from there. Using terminology that relates to cause and effect is much more efficient.
To address another point, let me quote "As I see it tho you are still equating an ability to predict the outcome w it being determined. I think they are separate."
no no no no no. Aside from your use of "predict," what I am saying is that the perception of predetermination (which, aside from stipulating consciousness, also implies a chain of events and force) rests in the ability to compute knowledge. If you still don't understand, wiki determinism vs. indeterminism. determinism fits well into the knowledge we have of the world. Its late, I'll address this later.
I have to disagree. In a deterministic universe, though it may be an unhappy thought, you are the product of events, not the free spirit you'd like to think you are. The equations necessary to predict your future "choices" are unworkably large but, If you don't dwell on it, you can go with the flow and feel comfortable punishing yourself and others for moral transgressions (bad choices).
I've always thought that retribution and punishment should not be goals of a civilized society, but, instead, prevention. Isolate sociopaths, don't torture them directly or indirectly (sending them out into an exercise yard to be shanked).