I know this has been discussed before, but I have read Sam Harris' book Free Will and Michael Shermer's book The Believing Brain, and I must say that I agree with both authors. Studies show that our brains make a decision on an unconscious level three tenths of a second and sometimes more before we even consciously know we're going to act. To take a short quote from Shermer's book: "The neural activity that precedes the intention to act is inaccessible to our conscious mind, so we experience a sense of free will. But it is an illusion, caused by the fact that we cannot identify the cause of the awareness of our intention to act".

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 but the how energy should theoretically relate to mass.

Again, you are misunderstanding language itself.  It addresses how energy (that exists) relates to mass (that exists)...and it's verified based by a posteriori knowledge. But like I said, apriori knowledge also addresses what "exists"

"To say that everything mentioned in physics must physically exist is a fallacy of names."

I never said anything about "must", but rather that it addresses what "exists". It could be a mistake that X exists in physics (science is never absolute), but it still is addressing "existence". And yes, this is everything in physics (otherwise it's not physics - physics doesn't make claims about non-existence or non-physicalness).

The claim "brains exist" is a claim on existence (and a correct claim at that). There doesn't need to be one object called "brains". 

But we aren't talking about what exists, but rather what is addressing existence (e.g. if X is true, X exists) . If it happens that we are a brain in a jar, the sun might not exist...but the claim "the sun exists" is a claim on existence none-the-less. If how we perceive reality is true, then the sun exists. 

Also, you seem to think only "things" that are objects exist. This isn't the case. Configurations exist, properties exist, states exist, qualities exist, relationships exist, elements exist, quantities exist, motion exists, gravity exists, the universe exists, behavior exists, and so on. Our words and symbols (e.g. in physics) are used to describe all of these different things that exist...not just "objects". The orbit of the Earth around the sun exists. It takes a specific trajectory (that we use mathematics and our understanding of general relativity to determine). Such orbit "exists". And all of these things are physical manifestations. 

If every event in the universe has a cause, determinism "exists". If some acausal events happen, determinism doesn't exist (but rather indeterminism exists). Determinism and indeterminism are addressing ontology (what exists). These are the only two possibilities.

I'd also suggest causes exist (even though correlation doesn't imply causation, and we never actually see a cause, there is much evidence for the existence of causality). Our very scientific method is based on this understanding. These aren't claims that transcend materialism or physicalism.

Laterz. :)

An ontology as big as all outdoors may be difficult to defend. It would appear to imply that anything which can be thought of without contradiction has existence. This conjures up a whole host of things you might not want.

Ontology is just the study of existence. It doesn't mean something actually exists, just that X is a claim on existence. God exists IS an ontological claim (even though we are all, I assume, atheists here).

Some existence claims have more evidence than others. Or you can use model logic and address multiple existence "possibilities". For example, the universe is either deterministic (meaning entirely causal) or indeterministic (meaning some acausal events). We can address the ontological claim of "free will" within the ontological framework of both of those possibilities (and conclude that free will is incoherent in both).

We can say, if the universe is deterministic, free will has these problems. And if the universe is indeterministic, free will also contends with these other problems. Regardless, both determinism and indeterminism address an ontological state of the universe, even if it is true that only one actually does "exist".

Trick, I think you may be missing the point that's being conveyed here by Chang, Allan, etc. You say that ontology is the study of existence. I'm not sure if I agree with the way you've defined that. It's the study of the nature of existence or the nature of being. One of the principle questions in ontology is what can be said to exist? It questions existence itself, and doesn't as you seem to imply, take it for granted. 

To take it for granted would be to fall victim to naïve realism, the concept that you directly perceive existence. It's an epistemological dualism where on one hand, you have the concept of direct realism that says we perceive reality directly, and on the other hand, we have indirect realism which says that what we call "ordinary reality," "ordinary consciousness," even "consensus reality" is essentially a hallucination. Our brains are creating this reality which we know does not resemble the "real world," whatever that is. The instruments of our physics and so on tell us that the world is a quantum world, it's full of vibration, it doesn't look anything like how we perceive it. So, a lot of what our brain does is synthesize a hallucination, essentially, create a model of the world that we proceed to live in. The world you and I share, and everyone shares, this is a model of the world, this is a model reality, not the "real reality." The "real reality" is completely unknowable, and perhaps will always remain so. The world we individually perceive is a biochemical artifact, in a sense.

So, when Chang says, "We are not describing any actual energy with E=MC^2, but the how energy should theoretically relate to mass," he means precisely that. Our notion of "energy" is precisely that, a concept. Our study of it is simply the study of the regularity of the way it behaves. Are these numbers constant? We've only been studying them for so many years. There are some scientists that believe that the speed of light is not constant, but ever so gradually gaining speed over time, of course, this is something beyond our capability to answer right now.

Well if we want to cover all of it "Ontology is the study of the nature of being, becoming, existence, or reality, as well as the basic categories of being and their relations."

But yes, saying the study of existence is sufficient.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not taking existence for granted. I'm saying that certain claims are "existence" claims, and those (all) fall into "ontology".

Determinism is about "what exists". It is an ontological claim. 

Quantum mechanics addresses the "ontology" of how particles behave "in reality", etc.

Our notion of "energy" is precisely that, a concept.

And as I said, every word is a "concept". We use "concepts" to "model reality". E=MC2 is addressing an ontological composition of energy. What "energy" is "in reality". It's not addressing a presumed fiction, but a presumes relation that "exists".

"There are some scientists that believe that the speed of light is not constant"

If it turns out that the speed of light is not constant (which I doubt - but that's a digression), it doesn't mean that the speed of light being constant wasn't a claim on "existence", it just means it was an incorrect claim on existence.

Also, if it turns out the "chair" you are sitting on doesn't really exist, that doesn't mean "chair" wasn't representing a claim on "what exists".

We don't have "absolute knowledge" (epistemology), but that's not the same as saying we can't make (likely) claims about "what exists".

Though I am in agreement with most of your writings, Sam, I have found that you have committed the prime mistake of semantics by failing to define 'free will' at all or adequately. This is one of the most ambiguous terms, hardly less vague that 'freedom'. Had you taken a broader view of the entire issue, you would have admitted that the concepts of freedom of choice between alternative courses of action - and limitations on freedom of choice - are totally essential concepts to anything like democratic civilisation. The question is not whether any kind of free will exists but whether we can exist as human beings without it. Who would disagree that some people are more free of restraints than others, hence are less able to employ their will at all freely)

Please see my fuller analysis 'Sam Harris on free will; is all 'freedom' a miasma?'


As I pointed out before in this discussion, freedom as usually understood is a negative concept.  It involves constraint, not being able to do what you want to do. 

So people who think determinism implies no free will, need to show some way in which determinism prevents people from doing what they want to do. 

The "free will" that doesn't exist in a deterministic world, should better be called "transcendental will".  We can't transcend the limitations of who we are in a deterministic world.  It's obvious that a deterministic world without transcendence implies there's no transcendental will. 

There are a few things determinism as a challenge to free  will does not appear to explain. If I wanted to mount a defense of free will, I would challenge determinists to provide a more complete explanation of how choices are made. If determinism is correct, it ought to provide a better view of how choices are made.

1. Malleability of intention. The first task is to explain the enormous ease with which intentions and desires are altered by a few simple words. The single word “No” in response to a proposal of marriage may change one’s whole future as well as one’s entire outlook on life. Merely hearing from a doctor that “Your biopsy was positive for lung cancer” or from a law officer that “The DNA evidence places you at the scene” may cause an individual to instantly, dramatically, and quite willingly alter his strongest intentions and best laid plans. In everyday life a sudden jog to the memory will cause a complete change of direction.

2. Conflicting desires. The appeal of dessert conflicts with your desire to lose weight and avoid  diabetes. You want to love your secretary, but not to abandon your wife and children. You want a bigger house, but do not want to take the financial risk. How is it that a mind rigidly determined by previous states is so often caught between alternatives?  If all choice is determined, how can the individual be so terribly conflicted?  That at least suggests that the illusion of free will, the possibility of choosing—if indeed it is an illusion—is a quite powerful one.

3. Obsession.  We all recognize that people can be in the grips of an impulse so strong they are unable to resist. For example, trichotillomaniacs have an irresistible urge to pull their hair out. The obsessive-compulsive person who is required to wash his hands a dozen times a day, straighten up his room, change his clothes is the clearest example of obsession, but we are all familiar with the person so committed to his work he cannot take vacations and cannot find ways to relax and enjoy life. Obsession ought to be a strong argument for determinism. How is it then that the person who is obsessed wants to be free of his obsession and why do we consider people who are victims of obsession to be unhealthy and those who are able to apparently choose freely to be healthy?

Have you read Dennett's book Freedom Evolves?

People make choices, we all do.  If our choices are an illusion, what "should" it feel like to make choices? 

With optical illusions, there's usually something you "should" be seeing rather than what you do see.  So what "should" it feel like to make a choice? 

The things you mention don't conflict with determinism.  Determinism is the substrate on which our ability to make choices exists. 

You may have a point there. Consider a Turing type test to determine if free will exists. Various options are presented to an unknown entity, perhaps a human, perhaps a computer, and the question is to determine if the answers are determined or chosen freely.

Now imagine that a computer has been programmed to respond with random choices. That is, when a choice of n possibilities is given, the program calls up a random number which determines the choice. The same set of possibilities presented at different times will produce different outcomes. How could you know the difference between this computer and a human being making choices without knowing anything other than the outputs?

(There are real random number generators that base their output on atmospheric noise and are superior to the pseudo-random number generators in standard commercial programs.)

I believe you could not distinguish a determined entity, a human being, and the computer I described. To my way of thinking that means that free will and determinism are not good ways of studying realities.


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