Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Louis on August 30, 2009 at 3:22pm

I carry a pocket Constitution around with me. I've had someone tell me that the Constitution says 'Freedom of religion,' not, 'Freedom from religion.' I handed it to him and asked him to show me where.

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Permalink Reply by Dave Rogers on August 30, 2009 at 3:44pm

The First Amendment Starts:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

There is no explicit "from" in the amendment. Your are really only free from a "government sanctioned" religion. They did not want an English king in charge of the Anglican Church situation here. However, I find it interesting they implied the freedom "from", before the freedom "of". I'm sure that goes right over fundies' heads.

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Permalink Reply by Louis on August 30, 2009 at 4:49pm

If anything, the Constitution makes a big 'whatever' when it comes to the State and Religion.

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Permalink Reply by Nightfall on September 2, 2009 at 8:29pm

Ok, a few things...

Yes, the establishment clause means freedom of religion, but it also means freedom from religion. I am not required by law, and indeed cannot be required by law to attend a religious service. I also shouldn't be required to use my tax money to support a religion, but that's fuzzier, ie Boy Scouts. They backdoor a lot of programs with religious foundations. To say that freedom of religion does not imply freedom from religion is simply ignorant.

Secondly, most of our founding fathers were Dieists, meaning they believed in a god that made the world, then moved on, and cared not what we do. Thomas Jefferson actually wrote a book that was the gospels with any form of miracle or any mention of the divinity of Christ removed. Franklin is famously quoted as saying that "Lighthouses are of more use than churches." In our founding father's day, per capita, less people went to church less often. God is nowhere mentioned in the Constitution. The USA was set up as a secular nation, and was always intended to be so.

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Permalink Reply by Courtney Conto on September 4, 2009 at 9:29pm

Right now I'm kind of in between being atheist and believing in God, but it ticks me off when people try to convert atheists. One of my best friends doesn't believe in evolution and tries to tell me the whole Adam and Eve story, I just want to smack her. :|

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Permalink Reply by Nightfall on September 5, 2009 at 1:50am

Ah, yes. Trying to convert the atheist using Scripture. It's like yelling at a person who does not speak your language in order to be better understood.

Adam and Eve, eh? The story with the talking snake? She believes in talking snakes?
*facepalm*

How does she explain palentology?

Seek the evidence, Melissa. I wish you well in your search.

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Permalink Reply by René Hjortborg Bjørnskov on September 5, 2009 at 3:27pm

I always yell back in Danish, nothing is better than fun with tourists.

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Permalink Reply by Not important on September 5, 2009 at 11:17am

Once someone tried to convince me that men had one less rib than women since adam gave his to make eve. I just looked at him like he had three eyes. I said "how young do I look?"

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Permalink Reply by Bitsy Haywood on September 7, 2009 at 12:21am

Many of the founders of our country were "Deists" which was a polite way of saying that they were highly skeptical but would admit in conversation that they believed in a creator god. Saying that you think that there is a god that created everyone but don't believe in any particular sect of christianity was a convenient way of getting rid of really annoying people who are trying to get you to go to church without getting tarred and feathered as a heretic.
Thomas Jefferson said:
"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."
Which was as close as a man living in that day and age could come to saying that god didn't exist and still keep his position in society.
Thomas Paine, who was less concerned with polite society, was more direct...
"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."
Undoubtedly many of the nation's founders were religious. But there were also very famous, intellectually able and personally courageous heroes of the revolution who were not.

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Permalink Reply by Scott on September 8, 2009 at 10:07am

The Founding Fatehrs may have been somewhat ambiguous in their terminology but Thomas Jefferson did a fine job of clearing things up when he coined the term "We must build a wall of separation between church and state" Jefferson was one of the most outspoken people of the time. He veheently opposed orthodox Christianity. Regardless of the possible misinterpretations of the Constitution, The U.S. Supreme Court is responsible for the interpretation of the Constitution. They have consistenly upheld all the ideals of Jefferson.

The purpose of "freedom of religion" is not to give christians, or any other theists, preference. It is also not to banish any form of theism. It's sole directive is to keep government and religion separate.

While I abhor Christianity, and any other religion for that matter, I would never dream of denying the rights of others to be deluded! In the end, it is not a question of the terminology used in the Constitution. Anybody with a high school education can understand what is being said. It is a matter of preventing Christians, and others, from trying to manipulate the intentions of the Founding Fathers!

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Permalink Reply by Secular Forces 2013 on September 8, 2009 at 10:13am

sounds like some folks are going through status anxiety

Greydon Square will break it down better than I could

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