Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by The Big Blue Frog on July 14, 2011 at 10:40am

I would say, "Saved from what?"

Permalink Reply by Albert Terry on July 19, 2011 at 9:04am

Saved from knowledge and reason! Those are tools of Satan! Get thee behind me Satan!

Permalink Reply by Shaheed on July 14, 2011 at 11:51am

Most religions have certain elements in its philosophy that preserves its survival. Christians tell the world that if you embrace Christ you will have everlasting life. In other words, your soul will be saved from damnation by accepting him as your lord and savior, and if you don't you will be dammed. Most people will just embrace a religion in fear of being condemned by God. Imagine, for a second, that a religion decided to proclaim that if you don’t embrace their philosophy you won't be damned. I bet that religion would not have a lot of followers if not any at all. "Everybody should be saved" is just another tactic religious people use to gain followers.

Permalink Reply by Donald R Barbera on July 14, 2011 at 6:26pm

Saved from what? Whom? Them?

Permalink Reply by Sendero Rojo on July 14, 2011 at 6:35pm

If I really believed that everyone who was not “saved” would face eternal torture, then I’d be knocking on doors myself. I have more respect for Christians who act on what they really believe is true and required to bring about a better world, than I do for atheists who sit idly by in this messed up world . Yes the Christians are causing harm in a thousand ways to people, especially poor people, but as Mao Zedong has taught us “everything divides into two” and the flip side of the harm that Christianity is causing people is that it will lead to resistance, but what kind of resistance and how will it lead to a better world (not through liberalism and Jeffersonian Democracy, but that‘s another subject :)?

One side in this struggle has the ability to easily promote aspects of Christianity throughout the dominant culture, in the schools (public and the growing number of private ones), on the money, on the TV stations, in social services <--note well), on and on. They’re able to play on our natural fears as social animals by being the ones who’re enabled through having served capitalist class interests-- (Christianity, the aspects they wish to highlight at least, makes for obedient workers who follow rules/laws and who don’t think, especially not in a scientific manner with the aim of getting to the root of issues) --to provide social forums (venues, social gatherings etc..), social services to the poor and generally the social atmospherics that we, as social animals, seek out (mates, buddies, groups). In short, one side, the capitalist class, has the ability to prop up Christianity, --(and it speaks to the power of their dictatorship that they are able to keep it propped up when so many of its claims are of such a completely ridiculous nature)-- and have every reason to want continue to do so. (Let your mind wander with that for a bit, but perhaps you won’t catch the full thrust of my words here unless you’ve ever really wanted to bomb another country, take their stuff, and set up your business and culture there).

And on the other side..,I’m in a hurry and can‘t dig as deep as I need to here, but overall my point is that rarely does anyone stop to think what would it be like if revolutionary and radical atheists (as opposed to the liberals or libertarians that dominate the online atheist presence) had a bunch of money being given to us for reading a book to some people, and if we’re allowed to print our slogans on the money, and to be in charge of school curriculums (especially in regards to teaching people the scientific method and why it is superior to all other methods for determining what is true), TV stations, textbook making, food distribution to the poor etc.. in place of the Christians and the class forces that enable them, what would it be like then? There are sections of the capitalist class whose interests are not as well served by Christianity as others, and they can use their elevated $tatus to promote atheism a bit, but they’re far outgunned ($) by the forces who wish to keep Christianity propped up, and the fear of a growing atheist culture..once again this divides into two and it gets lots of money flowing into church collection plates. There is no hope of ending Christianity while we live under the dictatorship of the capitalist class, revolution is necessary. Yes we all must be “saved” but from a real life monster, the capitalist system, not some god or devil.

Permalink Reply by gerard26 on July 16, 2011 at 9:39am

I work with offenders in the criminal justice system and all of them, man and woman, are mainly christian and swear by the living and the dead that they are saved!?, from what? I think stating that gives them a sense of superiority and moral righteousness they never possesed in the first place. They see it as their duty to convince others of the same nonsense, sorry I'll pass on the kool-aid. Reason and rational thinking serve me quite well.

Permalink Reply by alexa penzner on July 16, 2011 at 12:32pm

gerard - i think you are off track here - these people have deep problems that make them criminals - they are in jail, they know they did 'bad'.  their way of thinking may be different or maybe a lot of them are just not brainy.  if it keeps them from doing stuff again and makes them content, who cares if they think they are 'saved'!  i know some jehovah's witnesses who were really terrific people and others who were like yuk.  we don't believe in the imaginary god, but those who really do should be respected.  if people do no harm to others, they are ok. lots of christians, jews, mohammedans are good people and help others. you don't have to be their best friend. . .  coexist, man!!!!   

Permalink Reply by gerard26 on July 18, 2011 at 3:15pm

Alexa, I certainly support coexistance among all humans and strive to see that becomes a reality, however, I don't support the unsupported truth claims that theist are so well known for. Believers operate with an arrogance that is both breathtaking and insulting. My experience with current and former offenders, for example, is that for most they are in a state of perpetual denial about their role in how they landed in the criminal justice system in the first place, dispite their religion The christian faith is the predominate faith in our country, 76% by the most recent numbers I've seen, and within the offender  population, in jails and prisons across the country, this is true as well; the majority of offenders certainly feel that they are saved, as do most of the saints who are not imprisioned, you cannot claim to be a christian and not think this. As for the respect issue as a nonbeliever I get no respect for my point of view, that is unfortunate; one can only give what is genuinely given. The self-serving false certainties of those who believe in myth and superstition is underserving of respect, whatever that  is supposed to imply. I am fully supportive of and open to an open and honest exchange of views and positions taken by all who value civil discourse.

Permalink Reply by Sendero Rojo on July 18, 2011 at 4:52pm

I'm an atheist and I deny my role in how I landed in the criminal justice system. Gerard is on the blame the poor tour here. We live in a world that has long passed the ability to produce adequate food, shelter, and health care for all, yet we see people dying all around from treatable conditions! The capitalist class, who rule over this system, are the real criminals who rob people daily, not only in the workplace when they do not give workers 100% of the wealth that our labor produces, but also via the elevated $tatus they've achieved by such a setup they also are enabled to shape laws to serve their interests, to put forth the dominant culture and methods of thinking throughout society, to deprive people of the means to really understand and act to change the world, and to rob and rule over people in a million other ways. So yes, those Christians who make up a large portion of the prison population here in this country --that has roughly 5% of the world's population and over 25% of the world's prison population, along with 1/3rd of all of the women who're in prison in the world!-- are all excused for their "crimes." System makes the people.

 
If a child is locked in a room their entire life and given beatings everyday, whose fault is it if the child exhibits odd behavior and thinking upon exiting the beating room? Well, the capitalist class (those who own the means to produce goods) control and rule over one big beating room. Humanity can only be "saved" by carrying out a successful revolution to wrestle power away from those whose interests are served by the current setup that is grinding people up as we speak and by placing the means of production into common ownership. 

Closing here with a poem by Oscar Brown Jr.--

Oscar Brown Jr – Children of Children

 

The children of children by the time they’re half grown have habits like rabbits and young of their own

 

The children of children from their mamas laps hop down to the ground to be taken in traps

The children of children trapped by dark skins to stay in and play in a game no one wins

The children of children while still young and sweet are all damned and programmed for future defeat

The children of children are trapped by adults who fail them then jail them to hide the results

The children of children unable to cope with systems that twist them and rob them of hope

The children of children of sin and ashamed keep pairing and bearing and who do you blame

The children of children cry out every day – they beg you for rescue and what do you say?

Permalink Reply by alexa penzner on July 18, 2011 at 6:23pm

hello sendero rojo  -  so, i get that you are in jail now? you intrigue me much.  what is it that put you there?  and i totally agree with you on many levels, although not all.  i would be really po'd, too. i wouldn't last in jail, if i ever got put there, & it is scary to think that one might be totally innocent - the 'justice' system needs to wiped clean and started over especially everyone should be able to get a 'good' lawyer - boy, that's really a mess !!!  

i do think though, that one does have the responsibility for oneself as far as one is able.  Rabbi Hillel:  'If I am not for myself, then who will be for me? And if I am only for myself, then what am I? And if not now, when?”  the one thing i have always wanted to do is make a better world.  then i learned if i could one thing once in while, it's good.  now i hope just to keep back the flood !!!!  i don't know what i'm trying to say exactly !  i would like to talk to you though - p.s. i am not rich, not by even a little bit, in case you're wondering. . .  

the children of children - cry out in their sleep, cry out in their hunger, cry out in their loneliness.  why can't we make more of an impact? why?  please do write me back. . . alexa

Permalink Reply by alexa penzner on July 18, 2011 at 5:56pm

gerard - oh !

 

i guess i sorta heard you wrong and it got my goat (whatever that means - where does it come from - get my goat mmmm).  i certainly didn't realize that they deny to themselves what they have done.  and i really didn't know about the 'being saved' thing in quite the way you couch it. 

 

one thing about being respected. since iv'e discovered this site - i feel so much stronger in my atheism.  like me and all my fellows are lile Atheists - yea!!!!!  i wish we had a button or pendant to wear - not for labeling ourselves, but just say - 'Hey, I don't have a cross or a star or a moon -i have this !!!"  well, something like that. . . although,maybe it would give us a chance to find each other better.  anyway, i certainly respect your opinion and very well put, too            - alexa    :]   even alchemy has a sign . . .

Permalink Reply by Albert Terry on July 19, 2011 at 9:14am

Alexa:

No problem with coexisting, but the whole "Everybody should be saved..." mentality opposes coexistance. In Christianity, being saved means professing that Jesus died on the cross to forgive us our sins and that Christ is our savior who will give us eternal life. What this person means by saying that is that everyone should believe in Yahweh the exact same way she does, or else they are in danger of suffering.

• ‹ Previous
• 1
• 2
• Next ›
• Page