Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by booklover on February 19, 2013 at 9:08am

I don't agree with it.  I think it's really odd. It's sort of saying he thinks there might be a god.

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Permalink Reply by Loren Miller on February 19, 2013 at 10:04am

It almost sounds like the "rebelling-against-god" school of thought, rather than the thought-out, dispassionate, no-evidence-no-god, which I vastly prefer.  I refuse to be frightened by the thought that, somehow, there COULD be a god when all the data out there says otherwise.  There is no more logic in being cowed by the far outside possibility that there MIGHT be a god than there is in the equally far outside possibility that I might be hit by an asteroid.

Nagel's take seems to lack backbone, and no, I am not down with it.

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Permalink Reply by Jim DePaulo on February 19, 2013 at 5:33pm

"when all the data out there says otherwise."  

The data doesn't disprove the existence of god -  it's the lack of data in support of god's existence that's completely missing.

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Permalink Reply by Ted Foureagles on February 19, 2013 at 10:20am

My wish is that wishful thinking can't affect reality.  Unfortunately, I don't get my wish, as evidenced by massive ongoing slaughter, willful intellectual & emotional abuse of children, and perversion of political processes.

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Permalink Reply by Mathew T. on February 19, 2013 at 11:36am

I think he's guilty of the exact same thing theists are. Whereas they want a reality with a creator, he doesn't. Both camps of belief are predicated on wishes. Being that skepticism and reason seem to be paradoxically abandoned with his theory as well, I'd say it's no good, personally.

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Permalink Reply by Austin Miller on February 19, 2013 at 7:36pm

I perceive nearly every person who wants to communicate about their non-belief as wishing there was no God.  I don't think there is a God, and I don't want there to be a God, but I think most atheists are much the same, and as desiring not to admit it.  When I look at my childhood and see how angry I was because of those who believed, how alienated I felt, it seems ludicrous that I don't have a personal biased interest against there being a God.

I empathize completely with the statement, yet despite that empathy I believe I don't favor theism because I it violates empiricism and I value that.  

Even a casual observer of this site must admit that people here are quite often militant or passionate about their opposition to religion.  I often wonder, does Atheism necessitate being against other people being religious? It seems here that this is so, but maybe the litmus test is that an Atheist who is generally okay with other people believing whatever they want is unlikely to signup.  That being said, I think it more likely then that those who would signup for this site are then more likely to want God not to be true.

To be biased is human, to be biased and aware of that bias is science.  To perceive oneself as not biased is usually delusion.

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Permalink Reply by Mathew T. on February 19, 2013 at 9:35pm

Hmm, yes - but I think my point may have been missed. In general, I dread the thought of a theistic god, yes - but if you're saying that rationality is just cosplay in deciding if there is a god or not for us, then I disagree. Whether or not I want this god to exist plays no role whatsoever in my believing that this god does not exist.

Coming from the christian faith, I truly DID want a theistic creator at one time, and when I couldn't find enough evidence, the cognitive dissonance set in. This is my point about theists - despite the total void where demonstration of a creator should be, they want this god to exist, therefore "he" does.

As to your theory about everyone on here being more militant about their atheism, not really sure. In general, I think I would disagree, but I'm saying that as someone who IS militant about their atheism to some extent, but I believe it could be a learned mechanism from being surrounded by so many of my (still) christian friends.

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Permalink Reply by Lee Nix on February 19, 2013 at 7:49pm

I have mixed emotion about this quote. On one hand, I can respect the desire to not have a universe that is controlled by some omnipotent creator. I think if this statement is made from the point of view of a speaker that would be unhappy in a world created by a being, then I can see the validity of this desire. It makes me uneasy to even consider that all of existence could be the contrived project of one (or more) entity(s). Nagel's phrasing "I want atheism to be true" leads me to believe that this is not the case though.

It seems like Nagel is leaning more towards an agnostic theist view, with a fear of what that belief may mean for the universe. I could be completely off on this one though. Either way I think, after having thought it through, that I cannot agree with this reasoning. Beliefs should not be based on fear, or any other emotion, in my opinion.

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Permalink Reply by Ava Wilson on February 20, 2013 at 4:35am

No, I agree with him. I don't think he's an atheist because of wishful thinking. He adds it as a secondary thought. He says 'it isn't JUST that I don't believe in God' . . . 'I hope there is no God! . . . I don't want the universe to be like that!'

To me, this says nothing any different than the Atheist video 'Afterlife', which compiled a bunch of Atheist bloggers' views on the afterlife, and it included them speculating over what they'd think if Heaven was actually real. One of them puts in perspective how Heaven would be torture (laying out exactly how long eternity really is), and basically saying 'I hope that's not the case! It would be torture!' - I don't think he's saying anything at all different here. He doesn't believe in a god, but he's going further in saying that regardless of whether his belief is right or wrong, he actively hopes (not just believes) that one does not exist because of how more messed up our world would be if it was governed by some crazy monotheistic deity. 

That's what I pulled out of what he said, and I'd totally agree with it.

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Permalink Reply by Claudia Dunham on February 23, 2013 at 4:19pm

I completely agree with that statement. I say stuff like that nearly every day. Like Ava I don't think he's claiming it as a reason or argument for his non belief - it's simply an added opinion. And one that I share. I really don't care for arguments for or against believing. I simply don't believe in the fairy tale. That is all I need. But it's an interesting point to mull over for a while. Deep down would you rather it were true? I wouldn't.

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Permalink Reply by Greg on February 25, 2013 at 4:12pm

I think you bring up an interesting point. I could not help but follow it up in my mind with a whimsical question though. Are there any versions of theism that you, or any non-theist for that matter, would feel comfortable with? For the sake of discussion, I'm assuming that version would be true.

I have serious problems with the Abrahamic religions. But...if there were a religion that involved massive quantities of high end beer and chocolate, all non-fattening, I would seriously consider Sunday school, Bible study, retreats....

I am with you when you say you don't believe either extreme and that's enough for you. I take the same stance and argue that's all we have so why try to insist on anything more. My life could not be lived in a more "atheistic" fashion.

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Permalink Reply by Dr. Allan H. Clark on February 25, 2013 at 3:57pm

No, I reject religion because—when closely examined—religious statements do not make sense, they cannot be justified as describing the real world.

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