I have, it explicitely says year 1100...
We have original documents... we have the scrolls, many dating to the first century, THOSE do not speak of Jesus.
"We have original documents... we have the scrolls, many dating to the first century, THOSE do not speak of Jesus."
Alright Mr. I am incapable of doing my homework, please tell me (and the entire historical community who will be equally surprised) where exactly I can find the original documents of the Tacitus' Annales or Josephus' Antiquities.
Or are you talking out of your ass once again?
I am truly starting to wonder about your reading abilities...
Truthfully, think of it for a just a second... if I was talking about your references, we wouldn't be arguing about this right???????????
Of course I'm talking of the Dead Sea Scrolls and other original biblical manuscripts, originals.
But it's become sadly obvious that discussing this with you is completely futile.... adios.
And if you paid any attention at all to your correspondants, you would know I was not a Mr...
"Would you say that is an accurate opinion?"
I would say that that is a highly accurate opinion. And I don't understand why more people can't adopt such a perfectly reasonable position.
Of course it is entirely plausible that superstitious creatures like human beings will attribute miracles to a wandering Galilean preacher, and that the cult which formed around him will deify him after his life and will try to make sense of his humiliating death. All of that makes perfect sense, not just from what we know about human psychology but because it happens all the time. And it is also what the evidence indicates.
Yet apparently this is not 'obvious' at all, because there are many here who think it is faaaaaar more likely that Jesus is the result of some kind of mass conspiracy. Or something.
And you're also right about the supernatural elements: these are not verifiable at all, and nothing a couple of texts by non-eye-witnesses say can prove that Jesus performed miracles; which is why it's so hilarious to see Christian apologists try to do exactly that.
Now, when we dismiss the supernatural elements for what they are (i.e. the product of superstitious people) I do think we can - carefully - analyse what we do know about him and come to some conclusions about who he was. For example, I think we can pretty reasonably deduce that the historical Jesus was a wandering preacher, probably of the apocalyptic variety. And that he was crucified by Pontius Pilate, etcetera.
Once we realise the supernatural elements are bogus and can actually easily be discarded, we are left with a bunch of normal ancient texts which we can analyse the way we do with any other text.
So yeah, I think you have it pretty much dead on.
So what really gets me about "Christian Apologists" trying to use hearsay as proof of the supernatural events that were reported about Jesus? These same people, would have to come to a completely different decision using the same logic they use as proof jesus was divine, if they were a juror in a murder case, because evidence of that sort would not be acceptable as proof and they freekin KNOW it, and accept it, yet still have the audacity to imply the same rules don't apply to ANCIENT hearsay? I'm gonna call bull shit on that one!
I can equally understand where people might think that the whole jesus thing was a conspiracy considering how these viral stories got bastardized into something used to control whole populations of people. But I gotta agree, there was a jesus. It just turned into a giant snow ball once that first little snow ball started rolling down hill. I think it's just hard to believe that something so wrong would have occurred naturally, and not been invented. There's really not much difference in my opinion though, because past whether or not a man named jesus existed, the things he supposedly did, and the events that supposedly occurred concerning his divinity were pretty much certainly invented at some point, passed on, then added to when someone figured out what to add to gain control over believers. It was happening well before jesus and I think we all can agree that religion has been and continues to be a conspiracy to control people. I find it ironic that the bible openly refers to jesus as the shepherd and the people his flock (Sheep). Who's the freekin joke on I wonder?? rofl
Nice discussion Matt! You know your shit!