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Do you believe Jesus existed?

Apparently you can't do polls on here.... but

Do any of you think that Jesus actually existed? What do category do you fall into?

A. Believed he existed, claims are false

B. Believed he existed, claims are exaggerated

C. Don't believe he existed

D. Believe he existed, claims are true (sorry had to leave the idiot category open)

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Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by George Hanson on November 2, 2010 at 4:11pm

I would say there is quite a bit more no that evidence.

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Permalink Reply by nick altman on November 2, 2010 at 4:53pm

Not sure what you meant to say there, but I'll assume you mean there is still no evidence. Either you're ignorant of the evidence we have, or you're just choosing to categorize evidence you don't accept as not being evidence at all. We've got reasonable evidence to suggest quite to the contrary.

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Permalink Reply by George Hanson on November 3, 2010 at 5:42pm

I am starting to suspect that perhaps you lied an are not in compliance with the "no theists allowed" clause of this forum.

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Permalink Reply by Matt VDB on November 3, 2010 at 6:35pm

He didn't lie, and he's not a theist.
For the record, we take a dim view of implying that other people are theists around here, especially when you have no reason at all to think this. So be careful with those accusations, or your next notification could be from the mods.

And I mean that as a very friendly reminder.

For the record, you've made a statement which you haven't yet backed up:
"I suspect he is a compilation of many different ancient myths."
Care to substantiate that? We're all rationalist here so we expect good reasons for beliefs ;)

Take care,

Matt

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Permalink Reply by George Hanson on November 3, 2010 at 7:43pm

Perhaps you should read his post a bit more carefully. The one where he says I am ignorant of the facts. I have no evidence to present that jesus didn't exist any more than I have evidence to present that unicorns don't exist. He claims, and I quote, " We've got quite reasonable evidence to suggest to the contrary." My first question is Who is the we?? That pronoun is used several times in the post.My second question is What evidence?? As for a defence of my opinion that jesus is a myth a brief perusal of the this forum will more than answer that question. And finally if you feel compelled to tell on me to the modeators, have at it. I'm sure they've heard the same tired argument that we have evidence of christs existence before too.

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Permalink Reply by nick altman on November 3, 2010 at 7:56pm

Calm down and stop being so defensive. We're not threatening you at all,(*if you're willing to respect a position contrary to yours without writing us off as theists) there's no need for this "bring it on" response. We are rationalists and enjoy logical discourse, many atheists arriving at their non belief through skeptical inquiry. What you've demonstrated is a lack of skeptical inquiry I would argue, or ignorance. At least peruse the thread you've just contributed to a little bit, the last few pages at least. You've also demonstrated that having your position challenged will illicit an emotional response. Please leave that emotion at the door if it's going to muddy the waters of reason. There is historical evidence that a man existed who the biblical myth is based upon. You seem ignorant of the distinction we make between a historical Jesus and a biblical one. We will argue, with evidence, that a man who was a faith healer and preacher was crucified by the Romans who claimed to be the Jewish messiah, which is a prophet, and probably never claimed to be the son of god in the first place. If you're ignorant of the evidence we have for this, check the thread a little. If you want to argue the evidence, make a specific contention. Spare us your raised hackles.

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Permalink Reply by George Hanson on November 3, 2010 at 8:13pm

My hackles remain raised and I maintain that your arguments are those of a theist.

Permalink Reply by nick altman on November 3, 2010 at 8:25pm

A theist makes claims without evidence and refuses to consider the points of others, as you're demonstrating. You can call names all you like, you've yet to make a logical contention. Keep patting yourself on the back I suppose and have fun slandering others. If you'd like to have an intelligent discussion, feel free to make a point.

*edit

For the record, I am an atheist. I once believed Christ was a total myth, possibly an amalgamation like Robin Hood or Arthur, and I believed the religion was invented by Roman slaves and lower classes who were following the lead of a charismatic cult leader, probably Peter. I felt the cult was legitimized by Constantine. I then looked at the actual evidence and stopped making assertions based on ignorance. A living man who gave rise to the myth of Jesus changes nothing, there is still no god and no evidence for a god. Open your mind and consider you just might be wrong. Are you prepared to actually hear out and give credence to the evidence you are so quick to dismiss?

Permalink Reply by Matt VDB on November 4, 2010 at 7:47am

Fred,

"George thought it was theists and I agree with George that it is common among them too but it could be that Matt and you Nick have loyalty and see yourself as supportive of another group."

What's that supposed to mean? You know full well that the only thing I've (and I'd count Nick with me) advocated here is proper historical analysis with the evidence in mind.
And you also know full well that we've both said things that would make Christians highly uncomfortable.

"A kind of abuse of rhetorical skills you two seems to love to show off.

So I don't think you are theists at all. I think you two are atheists that love to use rhetoric writing to make others upset."

And that's total nonsense. I've never had to rely on rhetoric at all, because my discourse is based - first and foremost - on evidence. As for making people upset: have I ever made you upset? No. Have I ever made George upset? No. I've always been very polite with people who have honest questions, who maybe aren't familiar with the relevant arguments, or those that I talk to for the first time.
It's only when said people refuse to concede a point or cling to their faith positions, that I'll start using sarcasm and maybe a little bit of scorn. That's it.

If that makes some people upset, so be it. But don't give me this crap about how this is my goal.

Regards,

Matt

Permalink Reply by nick altman on November 5, 2010 at 2:24am

@ Fred.

I simply meant "we" as in Matt and myself. If you feel Christ was not based on a real man, make specific points. We can debate those points. How am I spouting rhetoric simply by stating there is evidence in the face of someone claiming there is no evidence? Frankly I think this comes down to someone taking the word "ignorant" as some kind of insult. Ignorant was used in the literal sense. If you don't think there is evidence, frankly you must be ignorant or dishonest. The evidence that exists you are free to say is not compelling enough, but to state there is a void of evidence is simply untrue. How can you possibly disagree?

I originally entered this thread of the opinion that Jesus was not real, and Christianity probably was created later in time and their history was a a fabrication. Matt demonstrated to me a way of looking at things that seemed to make more sense logically. I changed my mind, and I thank him for challenging me.
You dare accuse me of rhetoric? It's not my fault that people lack the ability to make a logical argument. If they continue to make the same mistakes, all I can do is repeatedly point out those mistakes. If that seems rhetorical, it's a view without a solid premises.

Permalink Reply by George Hanson on November 3, 2010 at 9:15pm

"feel free to make a point"... I think I already did!

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Permalink Reply by nick altman on November 3, 2010 at 10:36pm

Your point was that there was no evidence, this suggests there is no argument at all outside of the theistic argument. This is simply not true. You're wrong if you think there is no evidence, but you're free to look at the evidence and choose what you feel it tells us, it's not an obvious fact that Jesus existed and nobody that is here is going to tell you otherwise. There is however evidence to examine which suggests he did exist, whether it's compelling enough for you to accept as probable or not. We've been talking about it now for dozens of pages, you coming in and stating there's no evidence is a little comical. You're either ignorant of the evidence, or you choose to not come to the same conclusion, it's that simple. What do you want us to do, state the same evidence we've been stating over and over again because you don't want to at least look at the most recent discussion in the thread? You're just answering the OP's topic, which is fine, but don't pretend otherwise. If you have a point of contention over the evidence Matt has presented numerous times, make a point. But simply saying there is no evidence at all is insulting, and further equating us to theists even more so.

Perhaps you feel the passages from Tacitus are total embellishments in all content, and not just pieces of it? Or perhaps your contention of Jesus being a amalgam of myth is born from specific themes you'd care to specify? We will argue that it's easier to account for the position that Jesus was a man who gave rise to a mythology and religion that is of course not true, but it makes more sense that he was a real man than some conspiracy that has been enduring for two thousand years. You cannot simply say there is no evidence at all for a Jesus without looking ignorant.