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Discussion with Pastor

I recently moved in with a really Christian family and they want to convert me. We debate all the time and always ending up agreeing to disagree. They say they pray and cry for me, which makes me sad, but it's not going to change anything.

Overall they want me to talk to their pastor, because he can answer all the questions they can't(which is a lot). I'm really thinking about doing this.

I want to gather a giant load of completely amazing evidence, real explanations of evolution, history of religion, statistics of Atheist to Christians, ect. I want to print off lots of information and/or have a PowerPoint set up to further explain my ideals. I also want to ward off some negative stereotypes, and give further definitions of what I am and why I plan to stay the way I am.

Technically I consider my self to be a Humanist.

I have looked up lots and lots of information, but I quit for a while because technically I reached the point that religion does not and will never make any sense to me.

If you would kindly send some really good rundowns of information with anything from, charts, graphs to articles and history lessons that would amazing!!

Can someone say Boss Battle?

Edit: My Grandfather(who is living with us) says that evolution shouldn't be taught in school, and if it is taught he wants Creationism taught as well. His argument is: It's separation of church and state, not and state and church. I know this is wrong, but he doesn't. I need a way to tell him that it is in fact wrong.

Tags: Atheism, Atheist, Battle, Boss, Pastor

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Permalink Reply by Mike Liddy on November 3, 2009 at 1:54pm

//I wonder if you should bite this elephant off in little pieces.//

Good phrase. Don't think that I don't have a plan.

//no wait... don't go with freewill... you will never make progress on this topic//

I usually avoid those conversations because the idea so different to so many people.

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Permalink Reply by Structure Theory on November 3, 2009 at 2:13pm

This site is filled with materials for debating creationists specifically: http://talkorigins.org

Bertrand Russel might help too: http://users.drew.edu/~jlenz/whynot.html

This should help debunk Pascal's wager: http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2008/07/pascals-wager-rev...

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Permalink Reply by Mike Liddy on November 3, 2009 at 2:41pm

I'm not going to try and change anyone. What I want to do is give a long and thoughtful examination on why I do not believe.

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Permalink Reply by Edward Teach on November 3, 2009 at 2:35pm

There is a quote that goes something like, "Reason is the absence of faith and faith is the absence of reason."... Oil and water

My experience has generally been that reasonable arguments somehow don't pierce the surface of the faithful. Their objective is not to seek objective truth independent of human desire, as with the scientific method. Their objective is to seek support for a pre-existing belief. The result is rejection of all evidence that does not support their belief, even when the evidence is overwhelming and reasonable.

Honest Christians with some insight might actually admit that they believe based on faith even though they know their beliefs don't hold up to logical examination.

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Permalink Reply by Mike Santos on November 3, 2009 at 3:03pm

If you don't give a shit about intellectual honesty, give them a play on emotion. Tell them how your grandpa, a great person and a christian, was laid up in the hospital with agonizing pain for months before he died. Say "How could a good God allow this!?" and really play up that angle.

Not bad for a shot in the dark, if you don't care about how you're arguing.

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Permalink Reply by Edward Teach on November 3, 2009 at 3:14pm

I hate it... but appeal to emotions (especially fear and hate) seems to work pretty well for the neo-cons.

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Permalink Reply by Mike Liddy on November 3, 2009 at 3:15pm

I have an actual story similar to this. I could use it.

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Permalink Reply by Mike Santos on November 3, 2009 at 3:22pm

It's kind of a last resort though. If you start putting emotion into it, you are arguing just to win the argument, not to get to the truth. You would be using the same tactics that Christians use.

If you just argue from the idea that "why would God allow this?", without faking tears and the like, you're good.

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Permalink Reply by AcesLucky on November 3, 2009 at 3:46pm

There is a group here specifically for that purpose, Mike, though not fully developed yet, it has some great ideas and sites dedicated to just what you're trying to do!

It's called: Winning Arguments
http://www.atheistnexus.org/group/winningarguments

I am a member and can give many tips but checking out the Group might be better because it has a wide variety which can allow you to stick within your strong suit, once you discover what that is.

For general purposes, though, start with and stick to one topic easily defensible, that requires no knowledge of scripture or science (as in evolution, biology, etc., because they aren't scientists and neither are you).

For example: if eternal hell is at stake, then it would be eternally important (they would agree with that)! Given the absolute importance, then, of belief not only in "a" god but the "right" god, why doesn't this god just show up to set the record straight? (Easy solution to an infinitely important problem!)

No, not as a character in a book (like Jesus in a centuries old testament, or some angel in a Mormon story) but in real life as God Himself, right now? It does no good to say "have faith" for something so important when all he has to do is show up, right now, and tell us directly in only the way a god can do.

There is no excuse for any god to play hide and seek and then punishing us for eternity for not finding him. This could hardly pass for benevolence, let alone intelligence.

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Permalink Reply by Billy Deaton on November 3, 2009 at 4:15pm

Don't accept the burden of proof on this, you're never responsible for that, only the one making the claim is.

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Permalink Reply by Dani on November 3, 2009 at 5:54pm

I agree with a lot thats been said here but mostly with Billy Deaton on this, which is to not accept the burden of proof!
Idk maybe it's b/c Im sick of arguing about this with people who wont crack open a book other than the bible or those who make claims that only amount to nonsensical hearsay...

Basically you arent the one making this enormous claim so the burden to prove anything just isnt yours (unless you make it yours)...I'd send them along to do their homework, come back to me with reasonable information to back up what they believe (non-faith based, non-emotion based, non-experience based claims and definitely non-biblical!....if they agree to this, they'll eventually quit once they realize they have no 'proof' that suffices).

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Permalink Reply by Mike Santos on November 3, 2009 at 6:16pm

//
It's called: Winning Arguments
http://www.atheistnexus.org/group/winningarguments//

I don't like spoon feeding people too much, I think its important to formulate an argument mostly on your own, so you really understand all of what you are saying.