Atheist Nexus

The World’s Largest Coalition of Nontheists and Nontheist Communities!

Today I was chatting with a friend of mine who is an Elder in a Jehovah's Witness's Kingdom Hall. Luckily him and I are able to get into heated discussions about Religion with no hard feelings.
Well he was trying to explain to me their concept of how god gave them free will. How god gave us the ability to make choices for ourselves, and we can choose to do either good or bad.
That's when; I asked him if god is omniscient.
He replied; Yes, he is all knowing and all powerful.
That's when I told him; Well then you don't have free will.
He told me; Of course we do. god gave it to us.
I said; Then he isn't omniscient or omnipotent then.
He asked me; How do you figure that?
I told him; Well omniscience means All knowing, Knowing everything. So god would have to know everything you are going to do in advance of you doing it. And since he knows your actions in advance, your only option is to do what he predetermined for you. On the other hand if you do have free will, then your god is not omniscient. And if he doesn't have the power of omniscience then he's not omnipotent or all powerful either.
Well that's when he started up the verbal song and dance routine that the christians love to do when you let them paint their selves into a corner. He tried telling me that there are different meanings to omniscience and all knowing in the context of the bible. You know, the old "You're taking it out of context" routine.
So I asked him; What is the definition of ALL? What is the definition of Omni? When did they change "All" to mean almost? I always thought All was the opposite of Nothing.
Thats when he told me condescendingly that I needed to look it up in the dictionary.
So I popped into the house and googled omniscience.
Here's what I got;
omniscient - 4 dictionary results
Spelled Pronunciation [om-nish-uhnt] –adjective
1. having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving all things.
–noun
2. an omniscient being.
3. the Omniscient, God.
Origin:
1595–1605; < NL omniscient-, s. of omniscie-ns, equiv. to L omni- omni- + scient- knowing; see science
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

om·nis·cient (o(m-ni(sh'?nt) Pronunciation Key
adj. Having total knowledge; knowing everything: an omniscient deity; the omniscient narrator.
n.
1. One having total knowledge.
2. Omniscient God. Used with the.
[Medieval Latin omniscie-ns, omniscient- : Latin omni-, omni- + Latin scie-ns, scient-, present participle of sci-re, to know; see skei- in Indo-European roots.]
om·nis'cience, om·nis'cien·cy n., om·nis'cient·ly adv.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2006 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

omniscient
adjective
infinitely wise [syn: all-knowing]
WordNet® 3.0, © 2006 by Princeton University.

Omniscient
Om*nis"cient\, a. [Omni- + L. sciens, -entis, p. pr. of scire to know: cf. F. omniscient. See Science.] Having universal knowledge; knowing all things; infinitely knowing or wise; as, the omniscient God. -- Om*nis"cient*ly,

I handed it to him and told him; Here's four different sources that say I'm right.
He looked at that and said; Well OK, then I won't use Omniscient anymore.

That's when I handed him a printout from www.watchtower.org the Witness's official site with this gem;
"GOD is fittingly described as omnipotent and omniscient—almighty and all-knowing. Yet, when attempting further to describe God’s greatness, some add a third term—omnipresent. They believe that God is present everywhere simultaneously."
"While none of these descriptive terms are found in the Bible, the first two are clearly supported by Scriptural teachings. (Genesis 17:1; Hebrews 4:13; Revelation 11:17) God is indeed omnipotent, and he is omniscient in the sense that nothing can be hidden from him."

I told him; Then you're going to have to write the Watchtower and tell them to stop using it too.
At that point I figured I had given him enough to chew on so I took pity on him and changed the subject.
So tell me, Did I do a bad thing??

Views: 3

Reply to This

Replies to This Discussion

What you did will get you damned to hell!
Cool!!! I'll bring the Marshmallows and we'll have a cookout. That is if they let me in. Last time I was there I got drunk and pissed on the fire and put it out.
Yes, you did a bad thing... now do it again and again and again until your friend pulls his head out and thanks you for making a non-believer of him. (or until he runs away screaming back to the stale comfort of his delusional dogma, whichever comes first. ;-) )
No, I think not. If you can get just one person to think about their delusion, you've done your good deed for the day. Your logic was susscenct and to the point. You presented proof of your point in a logical and irrefutable format. If your friend pursists in his dilusion (read: faith) then he chooses to continue through life with his head firmly up his butt and I doubt there is anything you can say that will change that.

The vast majority of the world's population will not easily give up their comfort....and religion is a comfort. It absolves belivers of all responsibility, relieves them of the pesky task of thinking for themselves and, let's face it....it's a version of mob mentality. Great evils can be done safely and anonamously. It's the perfect out. god told us to do it so it must be right. Not our fault. And on....and on.....

But it's so much fun to twist their knobs. Keep up the logical work.
Have a thoughtful day,
Cassie
No, not bad it all!
I'm so impressed that you managed to back him up on a point!

I read somewhere just recently that, "it's difficult to reason someone out of a position not based on reason". This fact is why I avoid debates with theists -- I don't know how to debate while leaving out logic and reason. It sounds as if your friend may be one who DOES value reason, at least to a degree, so that's definitely a step in the right direction.

Way to go and keep up the good work!
You're going to burn in hell. Fortunately you'll have plenty of good company. ;-)
We need more bad people like you.

RSS

Support Nexus

Click to Buy Amazon items and help A|N

Advertisements

Heathen's Guide

Skeptic Money

Sex and God

Humanistic Judaism

Your Ad Here

Helpful Items

 

Search Atheist Nexus:
Translate page:

 

Social Networking Links:
 

Latest Activity

George Gordner III posted videos
52 seconds ago
Davey Lee replied to Steph S.'s discussion Morally Depraved because I came out Atheist
7 minutes ago
Davey Lee replied to J J's discussion Why Hasn't Naturalism Gained Momentum? in the group Naturalism
10 minutes ago
Jessica replied to Jessica's discussion ACLU encourages and succeeds in getting a NC School Board to Ban prayer at all Upcoming Events!
11 minutes ago
Sentient Biped replied to Joan Denoo's discussion Tomato recommendations in the group Godless in the garden
13 minutes ago
Greg DeMott commented on Greg DeMott's blog post I don't fit in
14 minutes ago
Tammy S replied to Jessica's discussion ACLU encourages and succeeds in getting a NC School Board to Ban prayer at all Upcoming Events!
15 minutes ago
Sentient Biped replied to Joan Denoo's discussion The secret to the immortality of McDonald’s food in the group Politics, Economics, and Religion
15 minutes ago
Jessica replied to Jessica's discussion ACLU encourages and succeeds in getting a NC School Board to Ban prayer at all Upcoming Events!
18 minutes ago
Joan Denoo liked Jessica's discussion ACLU encourages and succeeds in getting a NC School Board to Ban prayer at all Upcoming Events!
19 minutes ago
Tammy S commented on moJoe's group Atheist News
20 minutes ago
Joan Denoo commented on moJoe's group Atheist News
21 minutes ago
Kelsey Jo Lewis commented on golnaz's group Feminist Atheists
22 minutes ago
Tammy S replied to Jessica's discussion ACLU encourages and succeeds in getting a NC School Board to Ban prayer at all Upcoming Events!
22 minutes ago
Ruth Anthony-Gardner replied to Evil For All Time's discussion Greyhounds: The Coolest Commercial On This Planet in the group Atheist News
23 minutes ago
Sentient Biped replied to Joan Denoo's discussion Tomato recommendations in the group Godless in the garden
26 minutes ago
Jessica replied to Jessica's discussion ACLU encourages and succeeds in getting a NC School Board to Ban prayer at all Upcoming Events!
27 minutes ago
Susan Stanko commented on moJoe's group Atheist News
32 minutes ago
Don Weller replied to Stephanie Chiller's discussion nothing can come out of nothing- creation story discussion and how a person couldn't of just came to be and came as a adult
38 minutes ago
Tammy S replied to Jessica's discussion ACLU encourages and succeeds in getting a NC School Board to Ban prayer at all Upcoming Events!
40 minutes ago

© 2012   Atheist Nexus. All rights reserved. Admin: Brother Richard.

Badges  |  Report an Issue  |  Terms of Service