Determinism: What are your arguments against it?

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Permalink Reply by Rusty Gunn. on December 17, 2009 at 9:09pm

The idea that I have absolutely NO freewill whatsoever really grits on my psyche. Now I'm no fool, I see that events in history set up other events. For example, the ugly imposition of the Treaty of Versaille (sp?) set up WWII and was instrumental in bringing about the imergence of Adolph Hitler. However, I've been invited to Christmas at my sister's place in Oregon and I DO have the choice of whether or not to attempt the drive up there in the middle of winter. Who is to say what factors will effect my decision to stay home or attempt the drive in bull headed fashion even if a severe storm is brewing? You can make the CLAIM that prior conditions have already made that decision for me, but, the burden of proof is on you, if you do so.

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Permalink Reply by Johnny on December 18, 2009 at 10:16am

well... determinism isn't what I feel like you think it is. It's not like someone is necessarily pulling the strings and making you do nasty things because he feels like it.

If you feel bothered by not being able to choose something, of course you are more likely to choose the less bothersome option.

Determinism simply means that your mind which you percieve as "you" has been constructed by factors that you could not control. For example, at some point you likely left religion because it linked to another series of events and your intelligence mixed with your experiences thus far meant that atheism was the only outcome that could have happened.

There are many factors why you wouldn't go. Your experiences have told you that winter driving is dangerous, for example. If you never had that experience, you couldn't formulate that thought.

The psyche is extremely subjective simply because it is impossible to escape your own psychology. You are tied to your own psychology but if you like yourself the way you are, there's no reason to despair much about determinism. Even if you didn't like the way you are, doesn't mean that you are stuck that way and can't change in the future.

The burden of proof is absolutely not on me. The burden of proof is on you. I view determinism exactly like one might accept evolution. We are not omniscient so we can't know every factor that goes into either a choice or an evolutionary stage. We make educated guesses based on the meager fossils we have and eventually we find even more evidence to support it.

Now... the burden of proof? we HAVE evidence of determinism, however softly you accept it.the burden of proof is on what this "choice" is? What is an absolute choice that is in no way influenced by determinism? That can't be explained by determinism? It starts to sound a little like the elusive god argument.

Is there any evidence of free will? The evidence points contrary. Here's some proof. Look up classical and operant conditioning and the nature/nurture debate. It is accepted that these factors are the most powerful influences on decision making.

Free will? What is it? How do we observe it? I can't substantiate this, but on another thread, Nate said that someone actually found the part of the brain that makes us formulate the illusion of free will.

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Permalink Reply by The Nerd on December 18, 2009 at 8:26am

I honestly fail to see how it's relevant in day-to-day living.

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Permalink Reply by Johnny on December 18, 2009 at 10:03am

well the gist of it for me is that if there's no such thing as free will it is irrational to hate and hold grudges. Many problems in the world would be fixed if more people thought this way.

a dream more ambitious than worldwide secularism, but that is my application of it.

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Permalink Reply by The Nerd on December 18, 2009 at 10:08am

Even without determinism entering into the equation, hate is to be avoided for its own reasons. For one, stress is bad for the body. Also, forgiveness generally makes the world a nicer place to live in.

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Permalink Reply by Johnny on December 18, 2009 at 10:52am

sure! just more incentive is suppose. It's one thing to tell people "it's good for you" it's another to tell them there is no point whatsoever.

People hate murderers. If they find out that the one they hate is innocent, they apologize. if everyone is "innocent" no reason to hate anybody.

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Permalink Reply by The Nerd on December 18, 2009 at 11:58am

Yeah, I'm not saying that it's wrong or right. It's just that to me, it's kinda like particle physics: always there, but we don't need to consider it until we "zoom into" that level, and most of us never will need to in our entire lives.

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Permalink Reply by Howard S. Dunn on December 18, 2009 at 11:46am

I agree. 'Hate' has a great deal of downside. In fact, I'm not at all clear on the upside of hate. To me, hate is a distortion of fear - we hate what we don't understand and fear what we don't know.

Forgiveness 'thaws' what, otherwise, would be frozen in place. You really can't get 'unstuck', if you are unable to forgive.

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Permalink Reply by Howard S. Dunn on December 18, 2009 at 10:55am

Well - I think that 'determism', as I understand it, contains a cognitive dissonance as suggested by the suggestion in the phrase "its application or shaping of lifestyles?"

If the past is determined solely on an inexorable system of cause and effect, no matter if we can comprehend it in toto, then so is the future (since the future becomes the past - and in this model, the past creates the future.) Therefore, the future is as fixed as the past. Therefore, the extent to which 'determinism' 'shapes lifestyles' is simply a result of a chain of events fixed since the beginning of time.

So, the paradox in what you are saying is that believing in determinism removes the 'judgment' and its accompanying 'evils' - but, at the same time, it says that how we think, act, feel, believe, etc. is already set by everything that has led up to us (and therefore, leads away from us.) This paradox, ironically, nullifies the significance of determinism as a means of shaping anything. Everything, according to determinism, is already shaped or in the process of being shaped by past events that were, in turn, shaped by past events. Past, present, and future are already scripted out and there is no room for ad lib or improvization.

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Permalink Reply by Nate on December 18, 2009 at 11:50pm

Everything, according to determinism, is already shaped or in the process of being shaped by past events that were, in turn, shaped by past events.

The or in between is essential, Howard. Determinism is an ongoing process. For this reason, it's not at all contradictory to understand that what has happened has happened for specific reasons and to use that experience-based knowledge to proactively shape the future.

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Permalink Reply by John D on December 18, 2009 at 11:03am

The idea that we don't really have free-will is not very useful. It does not affect my consciousness. It does not affect my reality nor does it affect my perception of decision making.

My consciousness is the feeling or experience I have in living day-to-day. My consciousness is a monitoring and learning device and I have a perception that this device is "me". My "me-ness" is not affected by the idea that I don't really have "free" choices. My consciousness makes me feel like I have choices and so I experience choice. I have also assumed that all humans feel the same way I do, and thus we are all in this together.

This experience of choice is real since it is experienced by "me".

An odd story really... but this is the end of the story... life is truly absurd!

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Permalink Reply by Howard S. Dunn on December 18, 2009 at 11:53am

I think there is an 'as if' take on determinism; a kind of suspension of disbelief. What it says is something along the lines of: Watch a movie 'as if' the end frame isn't already on the reel.

Look, I've been 'pushing' folks like Johnny on the 'predermination' issue, because it makes things like 'motivation', 'responsibility', 'incentive', 'choice', etc. rather moot within the larger context. On the one hand, it is argued that we shouldn't judge people because they 'can't help themselves' while, on the other, it suggests that this philosophy can, somehow, alter the amount of judgment going on.

I'm with Nerd in that there are plenty of reasons to choose love over hate; even if you are entirely self-interested.

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