Converting Delusional People into Critical Thinkers?

So I was sitting here reading the "Atheist Camel Chronicles" and was thinking about everything he says in the book. One of the things striking me was that getting through to a delusional person is next to impossible. We all talk about it in one form or another. But really, how do you get through to someone who is delusional?

My wife is a prime example of someone who is delusional. Nothing that I say or do will ever change her mind. But maybe there is something I can say. Or, maybe there are things that I can say "over time" that may suede her mind into thinking critically.

The trick to *converting* delusional people is to get them to start thinking critically. But how do we do that? There must be a line of questions, or reason, that may tip someone into thinking critically without them knowing it.

It's had to of happened many times in the past, otherwise we wouldn't have people like Bart Erhman with us. The problem is that for people like Bart, it's taken a *long* time to let go of the delusion and come to reason. How do we compress that time for some (if not all) people?

Does anyone out there have success stories of converting someone of the faith back into reality? If so, how did you do it. Or, how do you think you did it? I need to start converting people now before it's too late!

Tags: conversion, critical, delusional, thinker

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Permalink Reply by Johnsky on March 9, 2010 at 11:03am
From what I have learned about manipulating people, the only way to alter someone who isn't a critical thinker into being a critical thinker is to repeatedly have them lied to. At first it has to be an easily detected lie. Then slightly harder to detect as you go.

All lies have to be somewhat related to the subject you want them to think critically about... but cannot be directly the subject itself.

Through the constant bombardment of false information, the subject's mind is eventually forced to use critical thinking in order to categorize information as it receives it. Without critical thinking, the subject will be unable to make sense of anything related to the subject material.

Unfortunately, you tend to become the "enemy" with this methodology.
Given that she's your wife, I cannot see any way you can do this without ruining the marriage.


A possible alternative would be to merely wait for some people within her religion to "backstab" her. (Interpersonal relations within a large group almost always results in some form of betrayal).
Then relate this subtly with religion itself, without going right out and saying it directly.

Basically, the categories betrayal and religion will have to overlap within her mind.



Oh... and... clear your cache and cookies / temporary Internet files.
Permalink Reply by Michael Lange on March 9, 2010 at 11:27am
I could see that working. Not sure how I could make it work, so I think I would opt for the betrayal version. Although, this has happened before. All she does is pick up from one church and head to the next. She's on her third church right now. Unfortunately, there's a church on every corner here in Georgia eager to take someone in from another flock.

I do clear out those things, but honestly, I really don't care if she finds or reads anything I have written or posted. It's all truth. What I write doesn't change our marriage or relationship.

Her reading any of this would only stoke the fires for a bit, but then they would settle back down. And things would be back to normal. Hell, if she can pray for death, I can certainly post a few blogs!
Permalink Reply by William van Druten on March 10, 2010 at 3:38pm
Yes several successes. I started the Lake Superior Freethinkers in 1997. And gave several classes as 'Freethought is it for you' at our University for Seniors. One woman was very relieved that her doubts of jewish belief were shared and she has brought several new nonbelievers to our group. Another former catholic has joined and many others. The story is essentially the same, 'I have harbored doubts but have felt I had to be religious to be a good person and be included in the community. All very gratifying to me.
I always take the opportunity to challenge faith beliefs in person and by letters to the editor.
Permalink Reply by AcesLucky on March 10, 2010 at 9:51pm
"The trick to *converting* delusional people is to get them to start thinking critically. But how do we do that? There must be a line of questions, or reason, that may tip someone into thinking critically without them knowing it."

I'm guessing it was Bertrand Russell, but someone said, "If it didn't get there by reason, it won't leave by reason."
Permalink Reply by Michael Lange on March 11, 2010 at 7:08am
Great quote! I'll have to use that one sometime...
Permalink Reply by Jennifer W on March 11, 2010 at 8:30am
It's hard, maybe almost impossible, but keep nibbing. Once a trigger of doubt creeps in, the rest will take its place. But, in the end, if the person wants to change, its going to be them who wants to change. I wouldn't get too too worked up on it. As long as its not destroying your mutual love for each other.
Permalink Reply by William van Druten on March 11, 2010 at 11:06am
Golly, I think we are overstating the difficulties. Americans, especially youths, are increasingly atheistic and that had to come from somewhere.

I think guilt and shame and derision have a place too. People need to know in soft or strong terms that it is laughable and shameful to believe nonsense and ESPECIALLY TO BRAIN WASH TRUSTING CHILDREN WITH THAT NONSENSE.

Look what they are doing to our world; remember the awful results of competing religious groups and their hateful response to us and to science.
Permalink Reply by FCoNicaea325 on June 8, 2010 at 11:01pm
I have found that if people follow a lie, it is better to slowly implement our truth or their lie to them, bring up small point occasionally, that indirect, do not mention God, as the mention of her, will cause something bad. Instead, bring up the existence of Sasquatch and how no evidence - no belief... once a shred of doubt is there, time will take over
Permalink Reply by amer muhammad on June 9, 2010 at 12:27am
It is a problem we all athiest face. In the society I live, scale of the problem is more than in your society. Over the years of experience I came to the conclusion that it is not the discussion in the hand only which matters. But there are many other factors like educational background, social environment............... which are forbiding the persons from thinking critically.
In most of the cases desired level of the success is impossible to achieve. So we got to lower our expectations. For example to not expect a person think fully like an athiest but becoming less reigious etc.
Yes our circle of friends try to do it on regular bases as a mission. I had success in two of the cases. But we don't work on everybody. Its is a complete wastage of time. Most of the people are not born to be critical thinkers. So only those people should be tried who show the symptoms, others should be left alone or one should lower his expectations for them.
Permalink Reply by Abnormal on June 9, 2010 at 12:41am
Is what she believes really affecting you that much? You decided to marry her I am guessing what she believes isn't something new to you. Why change her now? Let sleeping dogs lie.
Permalink Reply by Rusty Gunn. on June 9, 2010 at 1:25am
You can accomplish this task right after you make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
Permalink Reply by Hidden in the crowd. on June 9, 2010 at 5:25am
As long as this only slightly irks you i wouldnt delve too much in to it, you love her and isnt that what's really important in your marriage?

you could try to question her beliefs, maybe show her some books on critical thinking, if she reads one you read some of the bible.

show her some atheist videos on youtube even, they make sense believe it or not.

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